Talk:Carmen Lawrence

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[edit] Disputed content

Previously added the following material to the page but note that it has been removed:

  • Lawrence has previously suggested that issues of memory and its function will be the subject of a paper or study she may undertake. (ABC News, 7:30 Report, 23/7/99).
  • The release of cabinet documents following the expiry of confidentiality limits may reveal the nature of proceedings at the time of Lawrence's premiership. (Refer Enid Campbell UWA Law Review et al.)

These are factual statements relating to further information which may reveal new detail regarding the Easton affair and are, I suggest, not unreasonable inclusions on the page. I can only assume that their removal would indicate a reluctance to allow factual statements to be included in Wikipedia - something that brings Wikipedia, a wonderful resource, into disrepute. --220.244.224.104 14:09, 22 March 2005 (UTC)

Try assuming that they were removed as libel. See box above on Biog. You need to sneakier with your selective factoids and innuendo. Obvious bias brings your contributions into disrepute. Save it for your next Letter to the Editor not the WP. I have changed this to a biography ... AND SIGNED IT! --Fred.e 23:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Response: I agree with the author of statements deleted by "Fred" (whoever Fred is) - that "their removal would indicate a reluctance to allow factual statements to be included in Wikipedia - something that brings Wikipedia, a wonderful resource, into disrepute." Neither statement is libelous in any interpretation of such under Australian Law (including available precedents (refer AUSTLII). Moreover, the statements are clearly referenced, the material to which they refer is available in the public domain, is factual, and their inclusion complies fully with Wikipedia requirements regarding statements included within biographies. I would question the real motives of "Fred" in removing this material. 219.90.246.194 11:07, 21 October 2006
The material would certainly belong in a full length, thorough biography article on Lawrence. Unfortunately, the article is short and covers most aspects of Lawrence's life and career only patchily, so the inclusion of a thorough and in-depth discussion of this one single issue creates an imbalance that, frankly, makes the article biased. If you're really keen on making this a great article, try expanding the whole thing rather than material on a single issue. Alternatively, you might consider creating a thorough, well-referenced and impartial article on the Penny Easton affair (or some other title). Then link to that article from here; that way this article remains fair and balanced in its coverage. Hesperian 11:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, back here again and the argument remains the same although now I am happy to say that the inclusion is fully compliant with the policy on biographies of living people. The material is referenced and if controversial then only as controversial as the inclusion of the Easton affair. Again, I can only assume that if it is removed the motivation for doing so is purely because it upsets someone's political sensibilities and certainly not a desire to hide any factual material.219.90.246.159 10:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Nice try, but we don't fall for the "If you are not a Nazi/child molester/whatever, then you will leave this material in" line here. Hesperian 10:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Whose "We"? Looks like that last comment is a shoot the messenger job becuase Hesperian doesn't like something that may cast the subject of the biography in a questionable light. Given that, as stated, the material is referenced, factual and relevant it looks like Hesperian's nose is out of joint. That has to be an upset of political sensibilities.Northlight 13:25, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
We are people who edit under a username, adhere to policy guidelines and not personal agendas, or personal criticism. You merely addressed the last editor, not the only one. And he is an editor of high integrity and is well regarded in our community. We is shorthand for a community editing an encyclopedia via consensus.
References from court documents tend to replace isolated comments with no context. No other sources or citations have been forthcoming about a person who is not obscure. The tragic events cast a 'questionable light' over both sides of politics, but the 'affair' appears nowhere else in wikipedia, including the named parties in cases. The extent of accusations against Lawrence, of which she was later exonerated, was having prior knowledge of members bill.
We also assume good faith, you will hear more about this if you decide to stay around and contribute. Start a website about any fascinations you have, but please note this is a serious document, not a soap box. Please refer to the introdutions to wikipedia, if you are new here. There is strict policy in few areas, but biographies of living persons is definitely one of them. If you change your view after reflecting on this, can I also suggest you apologise to the esteemed editor in question. Thanks Fred 14:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
If I remember correctly the circumstances were that the RC was called in 1995 about events three years earlier, right when the Liberals were answering some uncomfortable questions about Wanneroo in another royal commission. If there was ever a page written about John Halden it would be definitely relevant to that. Considering the subject of this article has had a largely unblemished 20-year career and her role in the affair was pretty much negligible (knowing ain't quite the same as doing, and that's even assuming she had full knowledge), it seems a bit odd dwelling on it here. There may be scope for a "List of Royal Commissions in Western Australia" at some point in the future though, there's been that many of them :) Orderinchaos78 15:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Seems to me this whole "political sensibilities" argument is a red herring. It is beyond dispute that the Penny Easton affair and the Marks Royal Commission should be discussed here. And it is. The disputed material is:
"Lawrence previously suggested that issues of memory and its function will be the subject of a paper or study she may undertake. The release of cabinet documents following the expiry of confidentiality limits may reveal the nature of proceedings at the time of Lawrence's premiership."
Maybe I'm politically naive, but I fail to see how any of this is politically sensitive. The first sentence is just silly. It is of no interest to anyone what studies Lawrence said she might, but then ultimately didn't, undertake. I can only assume this sentence is an attempt at forming a novel synthesis between two apparently unrelated threads to do with Lawrence and memory. How or why, I have no idea. How this is politically sensitive, I have no idea.
The second sentence is accurate and politically neutral, but largely content free. If Enid Campbell has said that there is a great deal of interest in the release of the cabinet documents, or that the documents are crucial to understanding the affair, then great, include it. But right now all it is saying is "Lawrence's cabinet documents probably contain information about went on in Lawrence's cabinet". Der.
P.S. One last comment regarding my "political sensibilities". I've written one article on a scandal that brought down a W.A. Labour government. How many have you written? Hesperian 23:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
"Hesperian" and "Fred" - now there are two handles whose authenticity as "usernames" just stand out --- like "Northlight" or any other handle. Just because you sign off using a nom de plume doesn't validate your comment in any way whatsoever. Hell, you could be the same person, or Carmen Lawrence herself, or John Howard with bugger all else to do. The only really authentic username is your real name. I suspect we won't see that will we "Fred"? As for Carmen's memory lapse her stated concern on this was so great after the Royal Commission that she raised such human frailties in an ABC interview and was concerned enough by it that she expressed an intention to research and write about it. Perhaps this was just to assuage her feelings or make it look as if she was just the unfortunate victim of a poor memory. Self justification and defence at best it might be argued. After the heat blew over she obviously thought it was no longer an issue. Enid Campbell's comments are relevant in that they are indicative of just how much suspicion still surrounds Lawrence on the Easton Affair. The Easton Affair is a matter of public record and a key element of Carmen Lawrence's political career. The only reason Fred, Hesperian or anyone else would have to not want it included in an article on Carmen Lawrence is that they are embarrased by it or concerned that it might show Lawrence in a bad light. Who gives a rat's if you have a political bent, (a pox on both Liberal and Labor) - if you subscribe to the notion that this is really a reference site and encyclopedic, then you will have no issue with the material's inclusion. If you want to exercise a politically motivated editinig, do it somewhere else. Northlight 02:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Enough with the red herring. The Penny Easton affair is discussed here, and no-one is proposing to take it out. What is under dispute is two pointless and irrelevant sentences that (incidentally) don't appear to be politically sensitive. Your interminable accusations of political bias are tiresome. Hey, which of my articles shows the most bias: John Forrest, who used to call his Labor colleagues "dumb-driven cattle"; or John Scaddan, the most socialist of Labor premiers? Hesperian 02:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
There you go Hesperian, that should get you going again. Same arguments above stand as before. If you think the suggestions of bias are interminable wait until I really get going (this is great - it's like a sport - just throw the bait out and reel you in each time!). The content is relevant insofar as it sheds lighht on Carmen Lawrences questionable behaviour over this issue, behaviour which will not be fully revealed until release of Cabinet documents as Campbell has said. 64.34.173.104 01:30, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Reverted again. IMO those two sentences Northlight is adding are pointless additions to a biographical article. Is it possible he's got it wrong? —Moondyne 03:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed material irrelevant to Lawrence--unreferenced, and out-of-date material.124.168.70.76 07:45, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This really needs more on The Easton Affair.

Whatever you think of Lawrence, the arguments im reading above for leaving more than a cursory mention of The Easton Affair seem purely partisan.Before the scandal hit, Carmen Lawrence was seen as a major rising star of the ALP and there was talk of her being the nation's first female PM. The Easton Affair effectively torpedoed her political career and by the time she shook it off she had a permanent stain that condemned her to a supporting role for the forseeable future. It doesn't need to be paragraphs of text, but there needs to be more about it, explaining the impact on her career. 70.189.213.149 16:20, 23 May 2007 UTC

If you think the above is partisan, then you have fallen victim to the straw man argument. We all agree that the Easton affair is important and the material here should be expanded. What was under dispute is nothing more than these two sentences:
"Lawrence has previously suggested that issues of memory and its function will be the subject of a paper or study she may undertake. (ABC News, 7:30 Report, 23/7/99)."
"The release of cabinet documents following the expiry of confidentiality limits may reveal the nature of proceedings at the time of Lawrence's premiership. (Refer Enid Campbell UWA Law Review et al.)"
One party to the dispute insists on characterising the removal of these sentences as censorship of the Easton affair, but that does not make it so. Hesperian 23:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't talking about the wall of text above, I was making my own comment unrelated to it. 70.189.213.149 16:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Easton affair info needs to be added, right now we have one like about the affair without then explaining what happened. It could have been a dispute over the price of bread for all this tells us. Not to mention the fact that as it stands it basically tells us of negative allegations about Richard Court and nothing about Lawrence. 70.189.213.149 09:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

Article needs a bit of clean up to bring it up to standard as per other politcians articles (sections..etc) - will look at starting shortly. --Mikecraig 03:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Have started, will look at other similar articles for other bits to be added/fixed --Mikecraig 00:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some suggested topics for expansion

Here are some topics/items/trivia which I hope might be useful in the expansion of the article:

Lawrence

  • was a protege of Brian Burke and he went to exceptional lengths to promote her as a candidate, appearing in full-page newspaper photo-ads with her; with her seated and him standing behind her with his hand on her shoulder. I don't think he did this for any other candidate.
  • had the nicknames "The Fremantle Doctor" and "Doctor Feelgood". (Later, when the shine rubbed off: the sarcastic "Saint Carmen", "Carping Carmen" and "Lawrence of Amnesia").
  • initiated a relief programme to guarantee purchase price (?) for wheat after a campaign led by a Morawa farmer. (I think the price held up and it wasn't called upon.)
  • was the initiator of the "W.A. Inc." Royal Commission.
  • was involved in the Western Women financial group scandal. (Some reference material at the Greenleft site. Also at Parliamentary committee report.
  • presided over some infrastructure projects: E.G. The Joondalup rail extension and the building of the Esplanade busport.
  • moved from the defunct electoral district of Subiaco to Glendalough at the 1989 election.
  • initially promised to "lead the Labor party to the next election" after the 1993 defeat.

(I'll add more as I think of them.) Retarius | Talk 04:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

From my own memory of that time and from a number of sources, she may have been amenable to Burke before entering parliament but her opposition to his style of government and many of his measures was evident from a very early stage and effectively prevented her from becoming a minister until after his departure, and ironically made her an obvious choice for Premier when the WA Inc stuff really started to bite. Jim McGinty, a *very* long-term opponent of Burke who as TLC secretary way back in 1982 was saying about Burke that he was "not someone who, given a wider choice, we would choose because of his flagrant right-wing disposition", was effectively kept out of Parliament until WA Inc was over (he ironically replaced one of its main protagonists in Parliament at a by-election!) was a close ally. The nicknames really have no place in the encyclopaedia, just as we don't have "Captain Smirk" on Peter Costello's entry despite some people's efforts to put it there. I've put in most of the areas - I will reference later but most of my stuff is straight from Political Chronicles of the period. Have read them but in the mess of my room can't find them :( so will have to copy them again next time I'm in the UWA library. Orderinchaos 12:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
OIC, thanks for your detailed expansion on my sketchy ideas; you're obviously much better informed about the internal politics of the Labor party than I am.
I've tried to format the headings to allow proper expansions.
I saw that you removed the section I developed on the Easton affair and the link that went with it to the article. You've described this in the edit history as "fix undue weight issue". I don't want to rehash the material in the first two items on this page; I took the time to read them carefully before proceeding to edit the article (You may have noticed that I took up Hesperian's challenge to create an article on the Easton affair) and I'm sure you're familiar with it all, as a contributor to the discussion. My understanding of the Easton affair is that it is the most important issue in the political career of Carmen Lawrence. I remember that Carmen Lawrence was received as Premier by most Western Australians with goodwill and open minds. (I was in that category. Nor did I rejoice when the Labor party lost office in 1993, much as they deserved it. My comment at the time, on seeing the quality of the new Ministry, was: "Western Australians have punished the Labor party by hitting themselves in the head with a brick.") Lawrence was the subject of serious and (at the time, plausible) speculation that she might be Australia's first female Prime Minister and was apparently on a golden career path. The derailing of that career is the essence of the story of Lawrence's subsequent life. I'm aware that there are many things to be said about Lawrence's Premiership which are positive and I have reinstated the first reference to the Easton affair later in the article where it chronologically belongs. (Now that you've added some things which can rightly precede it.) I would agree that there are many expansions to be made to this article, but I'm convinced that the Easton affair material is a legitimate inclusion at this stage. If you still disagree, I'd like to take it to the community at the Western Australian Wikiproject. Retarius | Talk 06:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm agreeing with Retarius. Lawrence's federal political career derailment was in many people's eyes nearly as significant as her term of Premiership and IMO does deserve expanded coverage here. An honest biography needs to explain these events comprehensively. WP:WEIGHT is not an issue with Retarius's proposed text. I try to avoid quoting policies, but WP:SUMMARY supports this with Easton affair now written. —Moondyne click! 07:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
There is already the article on Easton affair. Addressing this briefly - I didn't remove the Easton section - I consolidated two disparate paragraphs into one larger one, while removing the more contentious stuff which disagreed with the published sources - it is still important due to the media attention it got, but it got practically ignored at the time it actually happened mainly as too much else was going on, and became a bigger issue only after she'd moved on to Federal politics. When I first came to the article last night it seemed to suggest that Easton was about the only thing that happened during her three-year premiership, hence the comments on "undue weight". Let's not forget that she was never alleged to be the key protagonist - the worst they entertained was that she was aware of it - John Halden was a lot closer to it and endured more critical findings than did Lawrence. Orderinchaos 07:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to you both for the foregoing. OIC, I simply forgot to incorporate the name of Halden into the reinstated passage. As to "Mahon" in Easton's name; there's a guy named Brian William (? I think) Easton, who was general manager for the Rottnest Island authority. The West Australian agreed to add in the middle names whenever reporting either of them to save the second guy always copping abusive and threatening messages. I think that, as this topic is of interest to Western Australian readers, we should preserve that practice. Retarius | Talk 08:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah no worries, I was unaware it was a convention :) Orderinchaos 09:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Heheh I am sure the ghost of the late paddy obrien will be making its various comments about most of this over a nice red wine over there on the other side SatuSuro 08:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)