Talk:Carmen

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Contents

[edit] Work to be done

After Porgy and Bess I believe this should be the next opera FA. After all, it is the most performed opera in the world, so why not? I have started adding the structure, and will be continually adding to it.

[edit] Things to do

  • A comprehensive description of major recordings
    • Original Production Info Added
    • List of Recordings done
  • A clearer and more concise synopsis
  • Dramatic Elements
  • History
  • Musical Elements
    • Influence of Spanish Music on the score
  • Images of productions, posters, singers, etc.
    • So far only one picture of Galli-Marié as Carmen.
    • More pictures would be nice.

--Alexs letterbox 07:42, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Responses of Tchaikovsky, Wagner & Brahms

The first man of genius to recognize Bizet at his true value was undoubtedly Tchaikovsky. A pupil of his, Vladimir Shilovsky, had been present at the first performance of Carmen and immediately sent him the score. In the late autumn of 1875 Tchaikovsky came to Paris with his brother Modeste, Carmen was dragging out a miserable existence at the Opera-Comique and was just on the point of disappearing from the repertory for no fewer than eight years. Modeste Tchaikovsky declares that his brother was in a state of intense nervous excitement after the performance of Carmen. "Peter Ilich has never been so completely carried away by any piece of modern music as by Carmen", he writes. He adds that the news of Bizet's death tended to increase his brother's almost unhealthy passion for the opera. Tchaikovsky's admiration for Bizet steadily grew. Five years later he wrote that Carmen was "a masterpiece in the most complete sense of the word; one of those rare works which will some day most vividly reflect the aspirations of a whole generation. What a wonderful subject!" he adds. "I am convinced that ten years hence Carmen will be the most popular opera in the world." Tchaikovsky's enthusiasm never waned. He never tired of a music that is "so fascinating in its simplicity, so full of vitality, so sincere" that he remembered every note of it. He regarded Bizet as head and shoulders above his French contemporaries. The next man of genius to realize the true significance of Bizet's work was Wagner himself. He was present at a performance of Carmen in Vienna in November 1875. He is credited with the remark, made at the end of the performance : "Thank God, here at last is somebody who has imagination." Hans von Bulow writes : "Wagner and Brahms vied with each other in extolling Bizet's masterpiece". No contemporary opera produced so deep an impression on the ageing composer as Carmen. He regarded it as the starting-point of a renaissance of French dramatic music, revitalized by popular song. It is interesting to note that his favourite piece was the Micaela-Don Josh duet-which is generally regarded as the most conventional number in the whole opera. He delighted in "the fresh naivety" of which he considered perfectly entrancing, and which the pianist Joseph Rubinstein frequently played to him at his request. Even more enthusiastic than Wagner was Brahms. His intense admiration for Carmen was a matter of common knowledge, even before Andrew de Ternant revealed the details of Debussy's visit to the German master. According to Debussy, Brahms regarded Carmen as "undoubtedly the greatest opera produced in Europe since the Franco-Prussian war". He bitterly regretted that he had never met Bizet and declared that "he would have gone to the end of the earth to embrace the composer of Carmen". He rightly deplored the regrettable spirit (redolent of the music-hall) in which Carmen is generally produced and performed. The whole work was inexcusably degraded to the level of a tragical operetta by the habit-so prevalent in every country--of representing Carmen as "the low-bred follower of Spanish soldiers", instead of as "a bewitching, cultured woman of Bizet's own nationality". Brahms subsequently insisted on taking Debussy to a performance of Carmen, and during the intervals delivered "quite a commentary-lecture on the principal numbers". He informed Debussy that he had witnessed no fewer than twenty-one performances, and that his admiration was shared by the Iron Chancellor Bismarck, who had attended no fewer than twenty-seven! These particulars must have been gratifying to the young French musician, whose fervent admiration for Bizet never wavered, despite the depreciatory remarks of the Debussyists.Wayne Leigh 16:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ballet and film

There's at least one filmed ballet version that should be mentioned. --Hugh7 23:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Escamillo: bass or baritone

Is Escamillo a bass? I thought he was a baritone... --Edit--I'm pretty sure he is. Updating page to reflect...

According to the latest EMI recording, he is a baritone. --Alexs letterbox 07:42, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Evanbro 16:30, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know he is a baritone. He has low notes, but also lots of high notes. It might be bass-baritone.

[edit] Soprano or Mezzo?

[edit] Carmen

  • Shouldn't it be mentioned wether the singers who had the role of Carmen in the recordings are Sopranos or Mezzos?
People can find this out by visiting the particular singer's page. --Alexs letterbox 07:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • It is mentioned in the article that the role was originally intended for Mezzo, but there are some small notes for singers who can't sing the low notes. Who added them and when?
The person who added them is unimportant, but was probably a low-level employee of the firm that published the vocal score. --Alexs letterbox 07:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Frasquita & Mercedes

The first version of the opera I saw was the Deutsche Grammophon/Metropolitan Opera DVD (dialogue version) conducted by James Levine with the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra and Agnes Baltsa, José Carreras, Leona Mitchell and Samuel Ramey as Carmen, Don José, Micaëla and Escamillo respectively. It's a 1988 version that should be added to the list. If you need more info, just ask.

Now the question. In this version, Frasquita is a soprano (Myra Merritt) and Mercedes is a mezzo (Diane Kesling) and they arranged the score so as to give Merritt all the higher parts and Kesling all the lower parts, so some, if not most of the time Frasquita is singing Mercedes's part and vice-versa. Is that done traditionally or is it just an exception?

--Orpheo 09:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems there ae two vwersions: here http://opera.stanford.edu/Bizet/Carmen/acte3.html, for example, Frasquita sings "Fortune" and Mercedes sings "Amour" (Just before Carmen tries her luck with the cards), but here http://www.aria-database.com/translations/carmen.txt the opposite is true.

It is true that Frasquita and Mercedes often swap their parts, but because the roles are so two-dimensional and similar, I have trouble telling them apart at first whilst experiencing Carmen. I believe this to be an irrelevant minor point. --Alexs letterbox 07:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] El Dancaïro & El Remendado

The article said that Le Dancaïre is a tenor and Le Remendado is a baritone. In the Deutsche Grammophone/Metropolitan Opera version, El Dancaïro is a baritone and El Remendado is a tenor, but in the score they both have a G clef. Tenor or Baritone? --Orpheo 10:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unnecessary Book Entry

I have removed the following: Pendragon Press has published a guide to Carmen which includes the complete text translated into English, International Phonetic Alphabet, as well as a translation of the novel by Prosper Mérimée and other literary sources for the libretto. This is Carmen: A Performance Guide by Mary Dibbern with an Introduction by Bizet scholar Lesley A. Wright. ISBN 1-57647-032-6.

There are thousands of guides to operas, and this one does not seem particularly noteworthy. It does not offer a previously lost section of the libretto, discarded music, etc., and therefore does not belong in revisions.

[edit] Trivia cleanup

I have removed the following:

Gene Deitch directed Carmen Get It, a Tom and Jerry cartoon, for release in 1962.

The 1976 movie The Bad News Bears, a movie about little league baseball in Southern California, uses Carmen incidental music throughout, primarily the Toréadors song.

In Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix, the song "Garden Boogie" is a remix of Carmen.

In the 1988 Winter Olympic Games ladies' figure skating competition, both [[]] and Debi Thomas employed portions of Carmen in their finales, winning gold and bronze medals respectively.

The late-90's-early 2000's Nickelodeon cartoon Hey Arnold! had an episode ("What's Opera, Arnold?") that was based almost entirely on Carmen.

The toreador song was once used as an advertising jingle for STP.

In Clerks: The Animated Series, the fifth episode, in which Dante Hicks coaches little league, has music from Carmen playing in the background during their games and practices.

In the 2006 movie The Benchwarmers, most if not all of the background music is from Carmen.

In Paul Thomas Anderson's 1999 film Magnolia, contestants on a ficional game show are asked to identify the opera based on a line in English. Habanera then plays in the background for several minutes.

If anybody can justify their inclusion in this article (as opposed to in the Clerks: The Animated Series, The Benchwarmers etc. articles), then by all means put them back in. --Alexs letterbox 09:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You need to get consensus before unilaterally whacking something that you just don't happen to like. Wahkeenah 10:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Alexs was acting on a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera#Trivia, where a consensus about trivia sections in opera articles is emerging. Fireplace 11:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no such consensus. What's more, I don't see the distinction between the items removed and the items kept. It was the ultimate POV edit. Marc Shepherd 11:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
There is indeed a clear and emerging consensus on removing unimportant, miscellaneous and irrelevant information from opera articles as explained by Fireplace.
I agree with the editing done by Alexs letterbox which was done after discussion with other members of the Opera Project. - Kleinzach 12:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I do agree that the editing was perhaps a little rash, but none of this information is encylopedic in any way. Listing every use of the music is even more pointless than listing every production of the opera. I stand by my original statement that the trivia can be put back if justification is provided, because right now, I do not see any. --Alexs letterbox 06:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Policy on trivia sections of opera articles

The Opera Project now has a policy on trivia sections, which is on the Project page item 10.9. We hope that contributors to this page will respect that policy, which applies to all opera articles. We of course welcome comments and ideas for developing our guidelines. Thank you. - Kleinzach 08:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tom and Jerry

There is this episode in Tom and Jerry where they go to an opera house and Carmen is being played, does any-one think this information should be added to the article?Atomic45 05:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Personally, no. This page should not have a list of minor references or sampling of the work. I look at it this way: Would any serious study of the work mention references in popular culture? --Alexs letterbox 06:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
It is mentioned on the Tom and Jerry Talk Page as being removed from the original article. I have always been impressed with the way cartoons introduced younger viewers to classical music. If I had never watched T&J (or Debi Thomas in the Winter Olympics) when I was younger, I would have never heard of Carmen. If the Tom and Jerry cartoon in question is not allowed in the Carmen or T&J articles, where should it belong? NBK1122 (talk) 18:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, nowhere. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. How is including a reference to all the cartoons that include Classical music going to further appreciation of that music? -- Alexs letterbox (talk) 02:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
To many opera fans, references to cartoons, sitcoms (esp. comedy) and video games are insults to the great arts. I am one of them. For that, I 100% support Alexs letterbox - Jay (talk) 03:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I do consider myself an opera enthusiast, however IMHO such "references" should not be considered insults to the great arts unless they're are offensive. I respect your position although do not concur with it. Please note I'm just expressing an idea that I believe is not unique to myself. Kind regards, DPdH (talk) 04:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Wild, Wild Rose

I have added this, but apologies as I haven't managed to see the whole thing and so am leaning on the IMDB page and movies.mov.cv a bit. The characters are correct and I think I have followed the right conventions (ie the full listing of pinyin and traditional characters would is usually on the page devoted to the topic) User:Conflatuman 13:30 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Formula One

The Prelude plays after all Formula One podiums, should be mentioned --201.9.109.152 22:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inquiry about referencing a movie based on this Opera.

I intend to make a brief reference, with an entry either in in the "Films" or "Others" section, to a movie that is entirely based on the opera "Carmen" albeit with a comedy point of view. This film is an argentinian one from 1943, also called "Carmen" [1], and the main actress is the argentinian actress and comedian Nini Marshall [2].
In my opinion, and after reviewing the "trivia policy" related to operas, the reference is relevant and would add to the article. To prevent anybody to feel offended by a perceived inappropriate edit, I'm asking the opera experts/fans their opinion before making the edit. If there is no formal or widespread opposition I'll include this reference keeping in line with the style of the article.
Having said that, a future article about this movie and would be included in the "Carmen (disambiguation)" page after I translate the one in the spanish WikiPedia into english.
Thanks & regards, DPdH (talk) 04:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Carmen alternate

In 1978 by Elena Obraztsova Carmen does not die. The article does not mention it. Where did the alternate script, lyrics and music come? I am pretty sure, I saw it. Don José and Carmen embrace at the end and everybody is happy! Someone should put that missing information... Davichito (talk) 20:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)