Talk:Carl "CJ" Johnson

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Carl "CJ" Johnson article.
Article policies
Famicom style controller This article is within the scope of WikiProject Video games. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.
Low This article is on a subject of low priority within gaming for inclusion in Wikipedia 1.0.
This article is supported by the Grand Theft Auto task force.
VG To-do:

Contents

[edit] Spoilers

There's some major spoilers here about the game, can we put a spoilers tag in, or remove the story related details that arent directly related to CJ? TR (talk) 18:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] CJ'S myspace

Whats wrong with putting CJ'S myspace there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sean mc sean (talk • contribs)

It's not his myspace. It's something that some guy made up. There's no information there that could possibly be relevant to the article. The only reason to link to it is to give whoever made it some publicity or because you find it personally amusing that there's a myspace page purporting to be by Carl Johnson. Croctotheface 18:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, it even incorrectly details his location: it says "Ganton, CA," instead of "SA" or whatever the official abbreviation would be. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit me § Contributions ♣ 03:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It just says that he lives in the United States. - Sean mc sean

Sean, why are you persisting in reverting to include the link (and reverting my other edits to other parts of the article) when it's clear that you are alone in your opinion? Are you familiar with WP:3RR? You have violated the rule on this article. Also, you should sign your posts with four tildes, like this: ~~~~. Croctotheface 03:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
1. I did not know that rule ok? 2. I think it should stay because its just a joke but it does not have to be official to be there, And 3. YOYOYO! 03:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC) THERE! - Sean mc sean
OK, I'm going to assume good faith and assume that you're new here, so I'll explain this in detail. WP:EL, the guideline governing external links on Wikipedia, holds that Myspace pages should generally not be linked to IF THE PAGE IS OFFICIAL, meaning maintained by the person the article is about. In those cases, it's possible that such a page would have relevant information that could not otherwise be found on Wikipedia, and yet the guideline still says that such links should generally be avoided. The page you want to link to has absolutley no relevant information whatsoever. You have not given a single reason to link to it (unless the fact that you believe it should be linked to is a compelling reason, which I do not believe it is), you've just reverted three other editors to put it back, repeatedly, in violation of the 3 revert rule. The page does not belong and it should be removed. Croctotheface 03:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
It IS CJ'S myspace!!! Sean mc Sean 03:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
But you previously said that it's a joke. Veinor (talk to me) 03:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Only because CJ is fake. Sean mc Sean 03:57, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Is the myspace endorsed by the creators of the game? Veinor (talk to me) 03:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Even if the page were endorsed by Rockstar, WP:EL still says it should be avoided. This particular page adds NOTHING of value. It has ZERO value as a link. There is no content there whatsoever. There is, therefore, no reason to link to it. Croctotheface 04:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
And why would "CJ" forget the state where he lives? It's posted as "Ganton, CA" on his site. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit me § Contributions ♣ 04:34, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, you can't play that "I didn't know" stuff. You were warned, yet you persisted to do so. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit me § Contributions ♣ 04:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Evidence that CJ is "co-leader" of the gang?

Lines about "co-leadership" have appeared a lot in articles related to the game, but I don't think there's any evidence it's true. CJ certainly becomes well-respected in the gang as he puts in a lot of work, but he was also away from the gang for five years, after he left San Andreas on awful terms with his brother. I don't know of any mention in the game that CJ is actually calling the shots. He has his brother's ear, obviously, but that is not the same as having a title. Croctotheface 21:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

CJ would probably take over Grove ST. Familys if Sweet died. - Sean mc Sean 02:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
That's just your opinion; it doesn't prove anything. Besides, even if it were true, it wouldn't make him co-leader, just next in line. Croctotheface 04:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
If someone can provide undeniable evidence that Carl is the co-leader of GSF, then they should present it here and then you may change it. .:Alex:. 18:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. And it's about damn time someone added a comment about that. I don't know why I didn't do it. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 19:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits that I reverted

I reverted Sean mc sean's recent edits because they described events in the game using the past tense, which is contrary to the Manual of Style, particularly WP:WAF. I would encourage Sean or someone else to readd some of the expanded information that his edit introduced in such a way that complies with Wikipedia's guidelines. Croctotheface 01:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC) Upon closer inspection, these edits were a blanket revert, spanning 37 edits, back to the first time Sean tried to introduce the Myspace page. (Diff) I find this rather disturbing. Croctotheface 11:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] C.J

Hey does anyone know what happens to carl johnson after san andreas, is he still alive by 2000 etc?

No. Also, read the above template. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 16:58, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow big deal what about it? it was only a question.

Who made a big deal about it? I answered you question and merely pointed out the above template suggests to not make any "forum-like" posts. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 23:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent minor edit war

I don't like to edit war, but User:Savoie's changes really puzzle me. Young Maylay's article is at, well, Young Maylay. I don't understand why Savoie is so inclined to want to use "Chris Bellard" instead. It is certainly more than acceptable to use the stage name of rappers as their primary identities, and it happens all the time at WP and in the mainstream press. Second, THIS article is at "Carl 'CJ' Johnson". I can't imagine someone being confused about what "CJ" means here, but if we agree that there is some confusion, then there should be a move request for the article. Third, we should avoid undisplayed comments wherever possible. Considering that there is actually a legitimate claim that Carl left for Liberty City in 1987, I don't actually see why we should insist on the language that's there now. However, even if we agree that "late 1980s" is essential to use while "1987" is totally wrong, I don't see that change being made frequently enough to create a problem that needs this kind of message. These edits are, in my opinion, borderline disruptive because they do not improve the page, and I would invite Savoie to discuss them here rather than continue to edit war. Croctotheface 17:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse my paranoia, but it's highly possible this editor is someone's puppet. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 22:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
[Personal attack removed] Savoie 10:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] CJ & 50 Cent

Did they call Carl CJ because of 50 cent being called Curtis Jackson so they had the same initials? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.100.192.93 (talk) 13:46, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

We can't say. It hasn't been stated by anyone. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 14:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

And Rockstar asked 50 cent to do the voice over for CJ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.100.192.93 (talk) 19:25, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

You can't source that. Only 50 Cent said that he was going to be in the game; Rockstar said something differently. Plus, this discussion isn't going towards any article relevant, anyways. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 17:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Klptyzm is right: this really has no relevance to the article. Let's just say they are his initials, and are used as a nickname, with the requisite quotation marks. The correlation with 50 Cent's initials is not verifiable. Eganio (talk) 12:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Murder prior to game

I think the murder of Beverly Johnson is only seen in The Introduction because it should be noted that it was before the actual game and only mentioned about. Does anybody else? "Was" is the right word to use, don't you think? Be free to post your replies below this post. 172.209.130.204 11:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The manual of style states that fiction should be written in present tense. I agree that "Carl's mother is killed" makes it sound like it happens during the game; perhaps "Carl's mother has been killed" would be better. Dbam Talk/Contributions 14:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Dbam is right. The entire storyline is fictional. It may be appropriate to use the past tense to describe something of that happened well before the start of the game, but not something that by all accounts happened days before Carl touches down in LS. I don't think "has been" is the answer, though. Some sort of modifier "is killed just prior to the start of the game's storyline", "who is shot in The Introduction", something like that, just not "was". Croctotheface 18:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Hero?

Is Cj an actual anti-hero? Reading from what Wikipedia describes he seems more like an anti-villain. I supposes it's all a thin line. 71.247.181.235 14:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

He does heroic things but lacks some traditional heroic characteristics. That's the definition as I understand it. Croctotheface 14:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I was going nowhere with the anti-villain thing. I just regard CJ as the villain who just happens to be the protagonist of the game. I've never actually considered (and still don't) him any type of a hero till I saw it suggested on here. 71.247.181.235 14:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Some of the things CJ does could be seen as villainous, I suppose, but the main arc of the story is about him doing what he needs to do to achieve "good" results for himself, his family, and his friends. A lot of the time, the test is to ask whether the targets of his "bad" deeds are morally better or worse than CJ himself. Madd Dogg's manager, security team, the cops in some missions, the military guys...there's a good cae to be made that they're relatively innocent. However, his main targets: the Ballas and Vagos, Tenpenny, Ryder, the Leones, and so forth--they are clearly morally worse than CJ himself. Croctotheface 15:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original Research

The personality section I recently added to the article was deleted because it constituted original research. While I agree with this assessment, I feel that a few citations would fix the problem and therefore have a place in the article. What do you guys think? Would it still be OR if I cited specific instances in the game? I am fully prepared to back up every assertion I made and will do so if necessary. I just need to know your opinions before I decide to take any further action. Beeftony 22:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

What you propose doing is the definition of original research. Croctotheface 22:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
It's not just original research either, it's also point-of-view. Citing specific instances is useless because any analysis is simply an opinion that others may disagree with. It's fine to describe CJ's actions, but it should be left to the reader to draw their own conclusions about his personality. See Wp:npov#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves. Dbam Talk/Contributions 23:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Still, I have to ask: was my contribution deleted because it constituted original research, or because you disagreed with it? Just curious. Beeftony 05:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It was removed purely for policy reasons, whether I or anybody else disagrees with the actual content or not is irrelevant. Personally, I thought it was, for the most part, a fair reflection, but I found one or two statements questionable: is CJ really a hedonist?; does he really hate all police officers? And this is my point, some may agree with those things, while others may disagree with the things I agree with—it all boils down to each person's point of view. Dbam Talk/Contributions 19:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The prologue in "past tense"

WHAT THE HELL?! The prologue happened before the game. We reverted it back to past tense. Are we right? If you look carefully at the prologue on Tommy Vercetti's page, it's all in past tense, eg "He *was* locked up for 15 years". Think carefully and then post a reply below. Kind Regards, 172.207.169.191 12:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I've already corrected the Tommy Vercetti page to preserve present tense. This page should also use present tense, and things like CJ's mother's recent death should be in the perfect aspect tense, as Dbam suggested here, e.g. something like "Carl's mother has been murdered". Or we can refer to the murder as a recent event using the present tense, like Croctotheface suggested under the same heading. Eganio (talk) 12:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
It's fiction, so it should be written in present tense. Refer here for more info and proof. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 05:15, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Damn... kok up all over again. -- ₪ SETH GECKO ¥ Give me a conversation ƒ My Contributions ¥| ₪ —Preceding comment was added at 12:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Character list in this article

I'm not sure that the issue, as Alex suggested in his edit summary, is that this is a list rather than prose. I think the issue is that we already have an article that discusses the game's characters. Doing it here as well would be redundant, and relating the characters specifically to CJ would probably have too much original analysis. Croctotheface (talk) 15:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I was kinda getting at that as well (of course you can only say so much in an edit summary). It seems too in-universe (and getting to be original research) and unnecessary considering the "Lists of characters" pretty much goes into all possible detail on them. I'll admit I was quite bold and a little hasty in the sudden blanket removal of those lists though. .:Alex:. 15:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I think you were right to revert them. They were offered in good faith, but they don't improve the article. Croctotheface (talk) 15:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)