Talk:Carl Orff

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There should be a link from this entry to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catullus, where the roman poet who inspired Carmina Catulli is presented.

Or perhaps from the page about Carmina Catulli, although that is just a stub.

necesito el texto en español Ich hatte gern das text auf deustch Ineed the scrip iin english

you speak multiple languages. good for you. you want a cookie or a medal?

His connections to the Nazis were most likely not as strong as suggested in the article. According to the German version of Wikipedia and other sources he went on to win the Bundesverdienstkreuz (1971), was buried in a semi-royal graveyard.... honours I'm sure a Nazi composer would not have recieved in modern Germany. Like many in Germany (and trust me, I'm NOT trying to find excuses) he hardly had a choice but to do as he was told. The fate of his close friend shows what may have happened to him had he simply (for fear of his own life) refused to comply. I strongly doubt he had much in common with the ideology of the Nazis at all. Call him an opportunist or a coward but it is wrong to brand him a supporter of the Nazis as this suggests many, many evil things.

=>In this german text he is not described as a nazi, but very well as someone who cooperates to push his carrier. which means he had the choice of not doing so. (but then I must confess I'm not an expert, so I cannot judge about the quality of the linked article.) There it is also said that when he claimed to have participated in the Weiße Rose after the war, it was because before this the Americans wouldn't allow his music to be played, which means again, to cleanse his image and push his carrier.

I think you are right. The linked article refers to the work of Michael H. Kater, who wrote two articles on the subject ("Carl Orff im dritten Reich" in Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte vol. 43, 1995; "Carl Orff. Man of Legend" in Kater, Composers of the Nazi Era, Oxford University Press, 2000). Kater tends to push his conclusions a bit over the top, but his research is thorough and his view on Orff's role in the Nazi-Germany is hard to invalidate. Gerrit Maas 15:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

My question is whether Wikipedia should reference such a badly written, internet article which doesn't even show its sources. Would it not be better to reference something like this - http://www.orff-zentrum.de/carlorff_biographie_uk.asp Hew 03:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Did Orff suck? 2 Pedagogical Work 3 Plagiarized? 4 Military service in WWI? 5 Jewish Grandparent, Fascist Aesthetics, Role as Educator, Continuing Influence

[edit] Did Orff suck?

This article seems to have been sabotaged: "Carl Orff who sucked real bad refused to speak about his past. What is known is that" These words appear in the biography section, but do not appear when I try to edit the page. Someone may want to do something about this.  :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.250.121.116 (talk) 20:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Pedagogical Work

"Schulwerk" translates to "school work." "Musik für Kinder" translates to "music for children."

yea...of course...

[edit] Plagiarized?

There's this Nobuo Uematsu song in Final Fantasy VIII called (I think) Tears of the Moon that sounds A LOT like Orff's O Fortuna. I'd be surprised if Nobuo didn't do a little stealing. Anyone agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.157.110 (talk) 21:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Military service in WWI?

I added the category "German military personnel of World War I" yesterday, then saw this:

02:32, 31 March 2008 FordPrefect42 (Talk | contribs) (10,983 bytes) (revert - certainly not _military_ personnel, read the article)

I did read the article, and it states the following: Moser's Musik Lexicon states that Orff studied at the Munich Academy of Music until 1914. He then served in the military during World War I.

His WWI military service is referred to here and here.

It looks like he didn't join the German army immediately upon the outbreak of the war, but obv. that does not mean he wasn't in the army at all.

Was this revert made in error? KConWiki (talk) 12:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I admit that I misread the category as "... of World War II" in the first place. On the other hand, I think adding this cetegory would be somewhat misleading. Neither did Orff notably contribute to warfare, nor was he a volunteer member of the army. He simply fulfilled his military service, which was (and still is) mandatory in Germany, so practically every male German living at that time would have to be added to that category. Orff's short-term military service did not exceed the year of 1914 due to serious health problems. --FordPrefect42 (talk) 23:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

However, there are plenty of American baseball players (Bill Conroy (MLB catcher)) and actors (Jack Klugman) and congressmen (Henry Hyde) whose WWII service has gotten them put into such categories, even if they didn't make out-of-the-ordinary military contributions. I'd like to put the category back. KConWiki (talk) 01:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish Grandparent, Fascist Aesthetics, Role as Educator, Continuing Influence

I strongly wish that Phaidon would have produced a biography of Orff along the lines of their excellent treatments of other 20th century composers. Until then, it seems that Michael Kater's "The Twisted Muse"(Oxford) seems to be the best english-language resource I've found. It would be a shame if the chance to interview Orff's contemporaries has expired along with the composer.

Much of the controversy over Orff's relationship with the NSDAP seems to be answered by Kamen's assertion that he had a Jewish grandmother (mentioned in the first paragraph of "Jewish Flight and Exile" on page 105 of the softcover edition of "The Twisted Muse"). Kamen doesn't address the degree to which this was known at the time, but it seems to explain a great deal of why he would face the same "gray" categorization from both the NSDAP and, later, the occupying Allies.

Also key to Orff's legacy is the unique role his music holds in what might be called Fascist aesthetics. Of course, this is incredibly subjective, and not without its contradictions. But, in my opinion, his music has more than a few parallels to the massive scale and clean lines of Albert Speer, the epic cinematography of Riefenstahl (sp?), the neo-classical pretensions of the Italian supremacists, and other touchstones of what may be very broadly considered to be Fascist aesthetics. The degree to which these aesthetics contrasted with the anti-modern bent of NSDAP authorities also makes for an interesting discussion on its own. .

Additionally, it would be nice to see his role as an educator given more attention. Orff didn't just help establish an entirely new approach to musical education - he developed an entirely original system of modular percussion instruments and a revolutionary approach to education of the very young. Also seldom mentioned is the degree to which these two roles overlapped - the same man who created an approachable system for the young to experience music and dance also used a completely original syntax in his scoring, with use of exotic percussion instruments almost never seen in any other score. A revolutionary approach to the orchestra itself - the likes of which are possibly only found in the operas of Wagner, who takes the brass section to similar extremes as Orff takes percussion - makes for an interesting counterpart to his revolutionary approach to education.

I would also posit that the fact that the opening notes of "Carmina" have been rewritten countless times for promotional spots, films, etc, speaks to the resonance of these aesthetics in our contemporary world - one might suggest that the promotional presentations of uniforms, choreographed violence and manufactured epic quality of professional sports owes more than a little to the Fascists of the thirties, and that the fact that rewrites (or the occasional actual use of a clip) of "O Fortuna" are frequently used for this kind of subject matter is, in my opinion, interesting, even if it goes far, far beyond the appropriate subject matter for a biographical excerpt. 71.106.176.234 (talk) 07:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)