Talk:Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim

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User:Wempain seems to think he should always be referred to by his full name, Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim. In my experience, he is most commonly known as Carl Gustaf Mannerheim, and Britannica confirms this with the title of their article on him. But I suppose there may be a good argument for moving it still, I don't know. Everyking 18:08, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I already commented on the issue on Everyking's talk page. Just to repeat: While I appreciate the fact that the full name of this Finnish military leader is rather long, I'd like to point out that he is not known here in Finland under that shorter name (leaving out Emil) - that is not the name commonly used. In addition to his full name, the marshal is referred to as C.G.E. Mannerheim, marshal Mannerheim or simply just Mannerheim (that's how he also signed documents, by the way). However, I feel his complete name should be used. When it comes to links, there's of course the possibility for abbreviation. Wempain 23:19, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, I suppose you would know about Finland, but that raises the question of whether the English convention should take precedence in this case. It would be nice to see if someone else from Finland has the same take on it as you. I don't find it particularly objectionable to title it by the full name, if there's good reason to think it's a better title. Everyking 00:06, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Carl Gustav Mannerheim (1797–1854), grandfather of the marshall, was an entomologist and governor in Viborgs län. The second middle name is relevant a "natural disambiguator". Beside that, I would like to agree with both of you. :-) To refer to Mannerheim with the ugly acronym C. G. E. Mannerheim or the full name is no good usage, but the article is better moved back to the name that's considered his full and correct by (at least) Swedish speakers, which he was himself. --Johan Magnus 07:35, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Mannerheim himself used the second name Gustaf and left the other two out. He signed at times merely Mannerheim or G.Mannerheim. Signature style changes considerable through his life. In public he never used his full firstnames. In informal family occasions he was merely Gustaf.
Wempain is right, of course! /Tuomas 14:19, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I came ("incidentially", we can say) to produce a couple of C.G.E. Mannerheim at locations were I felt that looked better than the alternatives. Feel free to change that to whatever your taste tells you looks better. :-) /Tuomas 04:49, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

All right, I moved it back to Wempain's title. Everyking 14:44, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

My grandfather received a commendation from Mannerheim for his participation in the Civil War (or the War of Independence, as it was called at the time). In the spirit of the times, the document is signed (albeit with a stamp) "Kustaa Mannerheim". Kustaa is the Finnish version of the name Gustav/Gustaf and is also used, e.g., of all Swedish kings of that name, including the present one, Kaarle XVI Kustaa (Carl XVI Gustaf). Mannerheim does not appear to have continued this practice very long after 1918. Incidentally, the official candidate of the Finnish royalists for the Finnish throne was not Mannerheim but Prince Friedrich Karl of Hesse, who was actually accepted by parliament and proposed to rule under the name "Väinö I", but this plan fell through when Germany lost WW1. --Death Bredon 14:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Not speculating into Mannerheim's possible mona~rchist aspirations, but mannerheim did use Gustaf as he did not like carl a lot. In fact on the Swedish wikipedia the article carl gustaf emil mannerheim was renamed Gustaf Mannerheim because of this. My guess is the translation has more to do with the language strife of the time, wanting to look like a finnish leader. But that's just a guess. Gillis 09:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] "Lahtari" / "The Executioner"

User:Ttalho added the following, which I removed:

As the head of the White (right-wing) troops, Mannerheim was highly distrusted among the Reds (left-wing supporters) during the war and after it. He earned himself the nickname "Lahtari" ("The Executioner"), a reference to the mass executions of Reds committed by the White troops at the end of the civil war.

I think this is both an inappropriate political interpretation as well as technically incorrect. "Lahtari" was a derogatory term used by the Reds (communists) of all Whites (non-communists), not just General Mannerheim. The term was used during the war as well, so its roots were not in the post-war executions. Also, it's natural for a party in a civil war to distrust the leader of the other party. This distrust of the Reds didn't disappear with the end of the brief civil war, but remarkably at the time of the Russian aggression of 1939 (The Winter War) the former Reds joined the Whites to fight the invaders, all under the command of General Mannerheim.

For more information about the distrust between the former Reds and Whites, see Civil War in Finland#Outcome and Lapua Movement. I think the political atmosphere in Finland in the 1920s and 1930s is an interesting subject and the label "lahtari" has to do with this topic, but this discussion shouldn't be in this biographical article.

-Wempain 01:28, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mannerheim as army-leader

As a military commander Mannerheim was a mixed success.

I am very suprised. Finish army was in WWII. very good evaluated. Results of finish war effort was impressive. How is possible it, with mixed success commander?
I red no publication, that evaluates Mannerheim like this. Very good commander was the worst evaluate, that I met. Excelent commander was more frequent. What is source of evaluate in artikel?

Cinik 16:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

There has been numerous reports in Finland about his shortcomings as a leader. There has also been an academic study about it. (Could somebody give the correct reference?) Finnish army was highly succesfull in the WWII, despite Mannerheim's inflexibility and unwillingnes to delegate. That is not to say that he didn't have good qualities as a leader. He had a knack for politics, ability to unite the country and to avoid unnecessary loss of life among his soldiers. The first part of the article described him as "an outstanding strategist" while later in in the article his strategy is critized. I changed it into "an astute politician and a successful military commander". While it might be disputed wether he was a brilliant strategist or not, the outcome is not (to my knowledge) disputed, hence the word "succesfull". --Chino 04:19, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
The word "succesfull" is spelled "successful" BTW. Hehe.
Most of the strategic plans were formulate by Aksel Airo. Mannerheim argued with him but also accepted his views - Skysmith 09:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] small language thing...

Well... i like this article... but this little thing troubles me, it really is not a big deal but...

"Ironically, Mannerheim never learned to speak Finnish until he was in his fifties."

well, yes it could be seen as ironical to many, but in fact very few of the ruling class spoke finnish as their mother tongue, or even fluently at that time, most spoke swedish(as there is two official languages in finland, and at that time swedish was more common for the ruling class). In fact also russian was more common in mannerheims youth for someone like mannerheim. So in a sence this is really not as ironical/funny as it might be to someone who does not know about that fact. But i can't come up with a smooth way of incorporating that information into it...

any ideas or thoughts?

Gillis 19:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

It might not be ironical for Finns, but it certainly is from the international point of view, where Mannerheim is usually known as 'champion of Finnish freedom'. - Mikko H. 08:47, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Well... then it might be notable that also Runeberg, Lönnroth and Snellman were not finnish speaking, and still are considered very much finnish heroes. In fact i'd want to hear one early 20th century or earlyer finnish cultural or otherwise hero that spoke good finnish? except leino and kivi... So it really would be more odd to find one that spoke fluent finnish than the other way around... I just thought it could be noted as a sidenote so that i twould not appear so ironic, as it isn't, maybe Finland's bilinguity might be appropriate to explain with a few words.... don't know? thoughts?...

Gillis 16:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Saying that most of the Finnish ruling class spoke only swedish is a bit exaggerated, since so called "Fennicization" happened mostly in the end of the 19th and in the beginning of 20th century and thus during WW2 most of the ruling class in Finland spoke also finnish, despite having originally Swedish names. Latre
You are right, many of the instead of most would probably be best here... But still, Mannerheim did speak finnish, but it was his weakest language (atleast according to the article). So still, i think it isn't all that ironic as the wording in the article says. Gillis 15:39, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
In fact, Mannerheim spoke more or less fluent Finnish in his childhood. At least that's what an elderly lady who knew him back then said in a radio interview in the 50s (the interview can be found in YLE's Internet archives). In Mikkeli's "Headquarters Museum" I listened to one of his radio speeches and he clearly doesn't pronounce Finnish the way somebody who learned the language as an adult does. Here's the same information from the "official Mannerheim site" [1] "Mannerheim learned the Finnish language in early childhood, although the many years spent abroad had their effect on the pronunciation." BTW, Elias Lönnrot's (not Lönnroth) mother tongue and the language he spoke with his relatives was Finnish. Tomppeli 08:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mannerheim redirect/disambig

Please see Talk:Mannerheim. Scoo 14:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mannerheim's height

The article now states that Mannerheim's height was 194 cm (6'4"). While many sources give this number -- Mannerheim certainly was tall -- I've seen many reliable sources stating his height was 'only' 187 cm (6'2"). -Mikko H. 10:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

not that it's a source but he looks more 194 to me. Gillis 19:03, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
At the time I read the article, it was written as 6' 4 1/2" (194 cm). This is pure American bigotry. Mannerheim was Finland-Swedish, and served in the Russian military in his youth. All of Finland, Sweden and Russia are metric-only countries. To completely ignore this and replace metric units with redneck units just because they look nicer should not be tolerated. JIP | Talk 08:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] new recording?

the edit of 21:09, 10 July 2006 68.166.138.247 claims there is a "new recording" found between Hitler and Mannerheim. Is this really a _new_ recording, or just the old one that mannerheim's adjutants conducted secretly during a train-ride where mannerheim and hitler discussed during Hitler's visit. That tape has been around for quite some time and is said to be pretty much the only tape of hitler speaking in his non-official way (which was quite different from the way he spoke in official speeches etc.), in fact the actor that played Hitler in the movie "der untergang" used that tape for training Hitler's way of speaking in private.

But that would not be a "new" tape as the edit claims. so sources would be great.


Gillis 21:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Probably someone who watched a TV documentary and wanted to share the "scoop" (i.e. All Quiet on the Western Front). Scoo 15:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Yep, that was my guess too, well i removed the part about the tape being new. Thanks also to whomever digged up some sources for it~(which also corrected some things i remembered wrong here). Gillis 17:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
An extract from the tape is available here (didn't notice a link or reference to it in the text.) Might be worthy of inclusion in the article. Personally, I think the historical significance of this conversation and the recording thereof is such that it probably merits a dedicated article of its own, but I leave that for more experienced users to decide. DublinDilettante 02:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] But what should it be called?

I agree it deserves it's own article, but what should we call an article about the recording, it can't really be "secret recording of hitler during his visit to Finland as long named articles probably don't get the attention they deserve. Could it be called "The immola recording" (place) or "The damen recording"(man who made it) or maybe "Hitler's recording in Finland" or? get your suggestions out! Gillis 07:19, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd vote for Hitler-Mannerheim meeting (1942), and let a large section deal with the recording. Scoo 14:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Leading the army 1918-1945"

I have a problem with this sentence: "After the Russian Revolution of 1917 he successfully led the army of the newly independent Finnish nation through a troubled period between 1918 and 1945." Mannerheim wasn't really a military leader between the wars. See the article itself under heading "Between the wars" and also [2] -- between the wars Mannerheim's interests were mixed, often more charitable than political, and he even worked as a banker. So I feel the above sentence is not accurate and therefore I changed it to "He started his military career in the Imperial Russian army, becoming the leader of Finnish government forces in the civil war of 1918 and during the Second World War." Wempain 20:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] "Mannerheim meeting with Hitler"

From the history I see that there has been some altering back and forth between two versions. The one currently in use is full of derogatory remarks on Hitler without citations. Doesn't correspond to NPOV, and some of it hardly fit into a high class article at all. Instead of just altering it back to the previous smaller version, I prefer to bring it up here. There was a lot of politics about that meeting and Mannerheim was aware of the possible future implications from being to cordial with Hitler, as he was during WWI when Finland approached Germany. Norrefeldt 11:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] "Russophile president J.K. Paasikivi"

Calling Paasikivi a "Russophile" is inaccurate. Paasikivi, who was a member of the Conservative Party, represented what came later to be called "Realpolitik"; his goal was to ensure through a policy of appeasement that Finland retained its independence and as much political free rein as possible. A pragmatic politician if there ever was one, he understood that security could only be guaranteed through friendly relations with the Soviet Union, but this does not render him a "Russophile" - only an astute diplomat.--Death Bredon 14:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Photograph of The Statue

This may seem silly, but I'd prefer a picture of Mannerheim's equestrian statue where he doesn't have a seagull on his head.


[edit] Mannerheim & Airo

This article could probably benefit from going into slightly more depth on the relationship between Aksel Airo and the Field Marshal. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 00:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch or German family?

According to a quite recent study mannerheims family did not come from the netherlands, but from Germany. The finnish wikipedia has already changed this. And it seems someone has tried changing it here but become reverted. The link to the source (in finnish) [3] mtv3 also ran the same new [4]. Could someone find an English source for this? also this of course is just one stdy, but looks like pretty solid evidence though.

Just looks a bit stupid when en.wikipedia says dutch and fi.wikipedia says german.


Gillis 22:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Well i went ahead and changed it as nobody aired any objections... maybe the mannerheim family article needs the same change? Gillis 09:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some summary of his status among the Finns

I'd like to add some sort of comparison that helps people realise that Mannerheim enjoys a status as a national hero par excellence and father of the nation. Would a comparison with George Washington or Kemal Atatürk be appropriate? These were also war heroes that also skillfully led the difficult birth of a nation and the troubled times that followed and they enjoy a similar "father of the nation" status. -Sensemaker

Hmm, i do think that anyone who reads the entire article has it somewhat clear for them. But a chapter on this view of him could be in order. I'm not certain about the comparison to other persons with similar brands though(?) Gillis 09:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC) and oh btw, when signing use four tildas.