Talk:Cargo cult

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Contents 1 Unsubstantiated causal attributions 2 Conflict Noted 3 Citation needed 4 charlatans 5 This is serious? / Ethnocentrism 6 Another Modern Example 7 Bad edit has taken article backwards 8 The Tupolev Tu-4 9 Analogues in modern culture 10 Mixing Rituals and Science 11 Did it ever actually work? 12 Popular reference= 13 Dawkins 14 Reverse Cargo Cult

[edit] Unsubstantiated causal attributions

This article makes unsubstantiated causal attributions (what causes what). Since it is impossible to prove exactly what the causes for the cults were, the article should begin with a very descriptive section, and it should put theoretical expalantions as to why the cults happened and what caused them in a separate section that is appropriately labelled. Credit should be given to the theorists and to the people who described the cults. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.140.250.245 (talk) 14:45, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict Noted

I have not edited the article, because I don't know where the truth lies, but the following sentences seem to be in conflict.

"continuously growing since World War II" "over the last seventy-five years most cargo cults have petered out."

It is probably technically possible for them both to be true depending on what exactly they are claiming to measure, but it looks like different people passing their own guesses off as fact to me.

[edit] Citation needed

The part of the article which refers to birth control in Africa desperately needs citation. If it's true, it's a fascinating event and give insight into human behaviour. However, it is so vague and unspecific: which aid organisation? Where in Africa? When did this occur? Without some sort of verification, this does strike me as being likely untrue - a potshot at the unenlightened natives. If it is true, can someone provide a citation, and more specifics?

I agree with the discursant above - the abacus birth control part of the article smacks of typical racism/snobbery coming out in folklore - what's often called an Urban Myth. I really think it adds nothing without very detailed citation.

I've moved the following from the article and placed it here. I study Hmong history and culture and I have never heard of this. It sounds like the original editor may be confusing elements of the Hmong exodus from Laos, the rise of the "Chao Fa" millennial movement, and other stories.

• "A religion described as a "cargo cult" developed during the Vietnam War among some of the Hmong people of Southeast Asia. The core of their beliefs was that the second coming of Jesus Christ was imminent, only this time he would arrive wearing camouflage fatigues driving a military jeep to come and take them away to the promised land."

Let's at least find a reliable reference before it is restored. Nposs 17:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

---

How about we tell OrphanBot to go straight to hell and put the pictures back the way they were? The picture of the guy with the circuit board tattoo'd on his back made the article.

Why does the article say "Eventually the cargo cults petered out," when this article, the discussion below, and other sources indicate cargo cults are still very much alive, and possibly increasing?

--Sailboatd2

"When Westerners explained to them that the riches came from labor and that islanders would get them as well if they worked hard enough, the cultists couldn't help noticing that, in missions and camps, islanders were doing the hardest work but got the least of the goods."

I have to ask - as this paragraph looks to be nothing more than a gratuitous potshot at "the West," which in this context was in the process of removing a genocidal army from many Pacific islands - did this entry's author speak to cultists who said, "I couldn't help noticing that, in missions and camps, we islanders were doing the hardest work but got the least of the goods."

How else would one know this? Having studied cargo cultists, I can't find any reference to any islander ever making an observation remotely like the one contained in the paragraph above, and for that reason, I think that that paragraph should be removed from this entry.

Having studied this myself, I find the above hard to believe. The so-called "gratuitous pot shot at the west" was an important development in the history of these events, at least in so far as the cargo cults of north central Papua. This took place quite early in their recorded history. I'm also a bit baffled as to what is being implied in the criticism; that the natives didn't work harder than the missionaries, that the natives didn't fail to become wealthy or that the natives were so clueless that they wouldn't have noticed the discrepency? Or perhaps the critic is suggesting that no one ever told the natives that hard work would provide them with wealth.

Steve Lowther 05:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

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This seems a bit nit-picky to me. It appears the author of the article deduced, or perhaps his research indicated, that the demise of the various cargo cults was due to a lack of positive reinforcement to the cultists. I don't think there needs to be eye witness testimony for such a statement to hold up.

"When Westerners explained to them that the riches came from labor and that islanders would get them as well if they worked hard enough, the cultists couldn't help noticing that, in missions and camps, islanders were doing the hardest work but got the least of the goods."

I agree, this paragraph does seem to stick out like a sore thumb. Although the relationship with the decline of the cargo cult can perhaps be noted, perhaps it should be put into that context, as more of a supporting argument, rather than such a Anti-Western Injection as this appears to be. However, perhaps some more facts should be presented before even this is done - right now the argument for such doesn't seem that well - almost ailing, if you will.

[edit] charlatans

The article says ...no one who participated in a cargo cult actually knew that they were doing so... I read accounts of the cargo cults that said that after World War II charlatans set themselves up and tricked those who really believed that they could lead them to cargo, in return for devotion and donations.

[edit] This is serious? / Ethnocentrism

Wow, really, Cargo cults? I wonder if this is some tongue in cheek joke.

No joke. If you are interested in learning more, consult some of the references listed in the article. Rex 03:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yep it's serious. The way it's written is not. Why? In two words, we're making fun of them. Not a wrong in itself (it is quite funny!), but a misunderstanding for sure. We relate that attitude to our mentality (basic ethnocentrism) instead of trying to analyse the phenomenon from "their point of view". That's of course a bit harder. But would certainly eliminate terms like:

• "they rationalize their attitude" (our Occidental POV);
• "The cult participants generally do not fully understand the significance of manufacturing or commerce." (true; but, on the other side, maybe we don't fully understand the significance of their way of "trading" ?
• "These cults are a response to the resulting confusion and insecurity." (nice Freudian interpretation - totally ethnocentric)
• "Today, most historians and anthropologists argue that the term 'Cargo Cult' is a misnomer that describes a variety of phenomena" Ah, last sentence of the introduction, first true NPOV sentence...
• "For this reason, and possibly many others, the cults have been labelled millennialist, in the sense of a utopian future brought about by a messiah." Yeah, and isn't a messiah first a Jewish and Christian invention?

This article is a mix of ethnocentrism & therefore full of what you could call anachronisms. However, I agree that "cargo cults" is a good idea - for a role-playing game? Tazmaniacs

I agree that the entire segment: "The cult participants generally do not fully understand the significance of manufacturing or commerce. They have limited purchasing ability. Their understanding of western society, religion, and economics may be rudimentary. These cults are a response to the resulting confusion and insecurity. They rationalize their situation by reference to religious and magical symbols they associate with Christianity and modern western society." is extremely problematic. It smacks of Cultural imperialism. Having studied this phenomenon, in the context of the meeting of two cultures; one aboriginal and the other colonial, what took place can only really be considered a perfectly logical reaction. The article paints it as "Oh ho! Look at those funny primitive savages! Aren't they wacky?!!"

With a better understanding of the native perspective, an even bleaker picture is presented of the colonial cultures.

Steve Lowther 05:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another Modern Example

Detractors of Peak Oil Theory who believe they are entitled to an unsustanable energy-intensive lifestyle that is destroying the earth while the fossil fuel required to support it dwindles away. This is a more conservative version of the traditional cargo cult where instead of mimicing the behavior of another new culture the practitioner attempts to mimic the previous generations that occurred in the post-WW II period of rapidly expanding natural resource consumption. In the face of a collapsing economy and increases in weather-related natural disasters brought on by the temporary and ending cheap-and-plentiful energy period the practitioner of this form of cargo cult puts the blame on everything except his or her unsustanable approach to living. As the world changes more and more their industrialized approach to life becomes increasingly absurdly out-of-sync with the reality of their condition.

[Technology Will Solve All Oil and Gas Supply Problems: The "Cargo-Cult" of the Modern World By Francis de Winter, August 2003]

This is not a "true cargo cult" hence, but a metaphor of a cargo cult. Nothing wrong about it, as long as nobody mistake it for the "real thing". Tazmaniacs

Yes, this is a metaphor that was created by an anti-capitalist. I'm sure we could go into Karl Marx's Fetishism of Commodities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.6.214 (talk) 01:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bad edit has taken article backwards

Previous article was far better. Several problems with the current draft:

1) Cargo cults were not generally about purifying communities from white influence. They were often about restoring a position of mastery between the community and its social and techinical world, and this involved correction of the colonial race imbalance. How can one seriously entretain, however, that a cargo cult was devoid of 'white influence', as opposed to whites, when absorbing and articulating the technology of the whites in terms of local culture was the main activity pursued by these movements?

Point made. Tazmaniacs

2) It is misleading to say that most anthropologists today think cargo cults were a 'misnomer', without explaining that there are different classes of movements and some of these are almost universally accepted as involving a 'cargo belief', while others, such as the native kampani style of movement were mostly branded as cargo cult by their political enemies. In fact, to say it was a misnomer without noting that this was a politically motivated one with certain resonances with colonialism is also very misleading.

Mmm... naming is always political, isn't it? Tazmaniacs

3) These are not points of opinion, but of fact. As for (1) see Andrew Lattas Cultures of Secrecy and Whitehouse Inside the Cult for contemporary examples, Lawrence Road Belong Cargo, innumerable articles in Oceania and Man - the 'purification' of communities does occur in a broad cross-section of these very heterogeneous movements, but the expulsion of white influence is rare. The article confuses revitalization and conservative movements with cargo cults. As for (2), this is a point of controversy in the literature and if presented should be presented as such. In fact, there are many anthropologists who do not subscribe to the view that cargo beliefs did not obtain in any movements; by my own review of the literature, probably a plurality if not a majority.

4) The view that cargo cults captured the imagination of first world people and that is why they continue to be talked about has some merit, as documented by L Lindstrom, who should be referenced. However, there are innumerable examples of continued cargo cults in Melanesia today, eg. Lattas; and the problem of interpreting the history of these social movements is a real one, and treated as such by anthropologists even when they make arguments to the effect that cargo cult talk is a distortion. The article fails to explain this crucial point.

I could'nt more agree. Tazmaniacs

5) The article no longer explains something of the history of these movements, which was interesting and informative, and indeed crucial for the substantiation of the points made. Instead, we now have mostly cases of cargo cult from the west. The article has also deleted the link to the Vailala Madness, the earliest well-documented such movement.

6) I propose breaking the article into disambiguated sections, or alternatively, confining the derivative usages - cargo cult science, etc... - to a minor section.

--To the above unnamed author: You make good points. Why don't you fix the article? You obviously have the background to do a competent job. --Barefootmatt 21:22, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Edited to add: I've reinserted the "history" section from a previous version. If you have more to add or clarify, go at it. --Barefootmatt 21:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Tupolev Tu-4

There were three planes that had to land in Russia. Two were used to discover their performance characteristics and one was completely dismantled for reverse engineering to build duplicates.

That one happened to have a patch from repair of earlier battle damage. Only the first Tu-4 had that repair duplicated. Russian aeronautical engineers weren't _that_ dumb. There were some differences between the B29 and Tu-4, most notably in the thickness of the outer skin. The B29's skin was all the same thickness. Due to aluminum being in shorter supply in Russia, the skin on the Tu-4 varied in thickness, only matching the B29 where it was riveted to structural members. It was thinner between the structural supports.

As for why the repaired damage was duplicated on the first Tu-4, I've heard that a likely reason was the men doing the project feared that any visible discrepancy could mean at best the loss of their jobs or at worst their lives. I also heard somewhere that it could've been a bit of a joke, to see if the project's government inspectors would notice what should obviously be seen as a patch.

Would people _please_ leave this section deleted in the article? It is one of the most implausible theories I've seen on wiki, with absolutely no evidence cited or implied.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 34.173.92.238 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Analogues in modern culture

Much of the text in the section "analogues in modern culture" reads like a typical workplace rant about management and does not seem to me to be worthy of including in a project that wants to be encyclopaedic. I'm loath to drop it entirely though.

And of course calling the section "analogues in *modern* culture" implies that all other instances are not modern, which is odd for something that exists right into the present day. I'll shortly rename it to "analogues in *western* culture". 217.206.131.214 09:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mixing Rituals and Science

Mixing religious rituals with science does not necessarily invalidate an experiment. If a Nobel prize winner kissed a rabbit's foot before performing the prize-winning experiment, should such an experiment be invalidated? Thus, the islanders could have been testing a cause-and-effect hypothesis and performing a ritual at the same time. It just happens that they had limited materials to fully clone the artifacts they believed triggered the deliveries. Such cloning could perhaps have worked if they mirrored an SOS message. --4.232.78.211 05:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did it ever actually work?

Has anyone run across a description of a successful cargo cult activity? In other words, did airmen ever get confused in bad weather and drop supplies to one of the mock-up airstrips? In the war, did either side ever pay cargo cultists to construct their airstrips, to confuse enemy intelligence? All descriptions treat these people like they were mad, yet in the fog of war you'd think they'd have had to have succeeded sometime. Mike Serfas 17:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Most of the "cults" apparently got going after the war was over, or the fighting had passed by an area... AnonMoos 08:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

You could argue that the John Frum cult has a halfway chance of success - it's not impossible that it will wind up becoming a 'cult' tourist attraction, dragging in the desired Americans and their cash/cargo to Tanna, Vanuatu. There are worse places to spend your vacation than a tropical island where the inhabitants welcome you as harbingers of their messiah. Rwestera 05:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

It certainly has - the cargo cult activities on Vanuatu have attracted significant tourism, income and 'cargo'. In an odd twist of fate, performing the rituals does, indeed, produce the desired results. It actually seems that the cult may be a pretty sophisticated way to extract cash from tourists. Troggalot 03:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there were some cases like this, where planes landed in unofficial airstrips. Note also that the constuction of unofficial airstrips was taken to be evidence of cargo cult, when sometimes people built airstrips because they, like, wanted planes to land and bring them stuff - which is kind of rational, if you live somewhere where there is no road. The cargo idea is that people built landing strips so that the *ancestors* would bring things. Another aspect of this is nicely pictured in the movie First Contact - the first whites to go into the Highlands organized a mock ritual so that hundreds of men would pound the ground, and if they did this - apparently they mimed all this to the locals - a huge bird would come. Guess what - a huge bird came. With cargo. There are many other examples like this. Yet another take is from the example of things like the Hahalis Welfare Society and movements which were actually very sophisticated, though they were called 'cargo cults' (as an exercise in political slander). These movements caused serious political problems for the government, which would try to deflate support for the 'cults' by pumping money into local councils, building roads, schools, etc... So, as a kind of protest, some 'cults' worked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.143.143 (talk) 04:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popular reference=

How about the 1980 film "The Gods Must be Crany", in which a tribe starts a cargo cult around a Coke bottle? The Wikipedia article on this film references cargo cults.

• I suspect whoever added this has not seen the film. The group depicted was not a tribe but a troop of about 24 souls. They are depicted as first accepting the 'gift' from the gods as extremely useful, but fights break out over who gets to use it, which result in injury and death. Concluding that the gods must be crazy, they decide to return the 'gift' rather than starting a cult to get more. I'm changing the reference to present it as a counter example.Lee 07:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dawkins

Unless I am mistaken, the "comparison with other religions" is original research or supposition. Wasn't Dawkins using Cargo Cults in his book as evidence that there is a predisposition for humans to create religions i.e. it is genetically programed (through natural selection)? (Later I believe he asserts that religion is actually a by-product of a basic human drive.) Hence, what is currently written in the article is misleading. Candy (talk) 19:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC) (article edited for sig .. wasn't logged in)

[edit] Reverse Cargo Cult

(Please consider that my tongue is firmly in my cheek) Is there such a thing as a reverse cargo cult? Some of us (modern) people look to the past and the more privative to, in a way, grab the spiritual power of the ancients. Consider that some modern people (read: my fiancée) wear "tribal" tattoos. Some non-Ojibwe put up a dreamcatcher on their walls or windows. Mark Forest (talk) 18:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)