Talk:Cardiff

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Peer review Cardiff has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
Cardiff is included in the 2007 Wikipedia for Schools, or is a candidate for inclusion in future versions. Please maintain high quality standards, and make an extra effort to include free images, because non-free images cannot be used on the CDs.
Image:UK map icon.png Pending tasks for Cardiff
WikiProject UK geography has identified ways in which Cardiff can be improved. For tips on how to bring this article nearer to featured article quality see the guidelines and resources section of the WikiProject.
  • Expand introduction: three paragraphs would be good.
  • Add economic data to industry section, possible renaming "Economy and industry" with subpage Economy and industry of Cardiff if required. Include GDP & employment stats (they mightbe available in this PDF file, or from local authority site). Mention major economic sectors and employers, with stats where possible. Tourism might fit better in this section, at least, when looking at it in terms of how many people visit the city and how much money they bring in.
  • Possible demographics section, with info on population, including changes and structure. Also include any census data that looks interesting.
  • Expand history, with subpage History of Cardiff. Is the fairtrade city thing notable enough to be mentioned here rather than a subpage?
  • Either a geography section, or two new sections: "physical geography" and "Areas and transport".
    • Incorporate the existing transport section, but turn it into prose. Include statistics on transport if available.
    • Describe the situation and landscape, e.g. beside the Bristol Channel and at the estuary of the Taff. Is it on the river's floodplains, or on hilly terrain? Briefly mention the underlying geology.
    • Climate, e.g. using [1] [2] [3].
    • If there are not many areas and suburbs of the city, briefly mention them all. Otherwise describe some of the notable ones and create a List of places in Cardiff article.
  • In the politics section mention the four constituencies and who represents them. Has Cardiff been home to any really notable national politicians, or political activists who have made a major contribution to national life? Currently the only mention of the Welsh Assembly is in a photo caption. This might be the best section to mention it in.
  • If possible expand the education section. For example, how many schools are there? See Bristol#Education for ideas for what to mention.
  • If possible mention a little background on the city's town twinning, if there's anything interesting to say.
  • "Natives of Cardiff" should be a category, but many of the more notable ones could be mentioned elsewhere in the article, e.g. historical figures in history and cultural figures in culture.
  • In my (Joe D (t)) opinion the article should be reorganised somewhere along the lines of: Geography, History, Economy, Culture, Politics, Demographics, Education, in order to better reflect the importance of each aspect of the city.
  • CITE SOURCES!

Please note that part of this page's page history resides at Talk:Cardiff/page history.


Contents

[edit] Notice

Could anyone add some more physical photos of Cardiff's skyline and attractions? Please respond. (Cepb 13:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Rivers

"A fourth river, the Lleucu has been culverted." I think this is wrong I do not beliebve there is such a river in cardiff- in fact Lleucu is a mythical welsh river and I think it has been entered here to continue the myth- Even if it is true then there are other streams such as the canna (as in canton and Pontcanna) which are more significant 24/4/07


[edit] Demographics

People keep playing with this section. Someone had put in some rather rediculous population figures. For instance, 60,000 students is well in excess of the combined populations of the universities. Those studying at FE colleges are generally not considered students. Furthermore, it is erroneous to say that students are 'not enumerated' in the census. They are - as the rapid rise in Cathays' population between 1991 and 2001 shows. No accurate predictions have been made for Cardiff's population, and 400,000 is highly unlikely before the late 2030s - unless there is a boundary extension.

ARGH its been done again - I had to change this just recently. It is NOT TRUE that students aren't counted. 2005 showed a population 319,000 versus a final estimate of 310,000 in census 2001. And The latest estimates from the Cardiff Research Centre saw growth in the city population of 15,000 per decade from 2011 onwards. So for the borough itself, if we take the estimates at face value and project between 2005 and 2011 based on the rate of growth between 2001 and 2005, we may get

2011 - 334,000 2021 - 349,000 etc

STOP CHANGING THIS!!


ARGHHHH its happening AGAIN! STOP STOP STOP STOP. Its some unregistered git - yes I'm unregistered but I make correct useful changes.

There is no "Cardiff Metropolitan Area" with 1.4m people. This is not a statistical entity or an administrative unit.Pondle 23:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cardiff Metro Area

I've tried to Google "Cardiff Metro Area"...yes, you've guessed it...nothing...this is a non-statistic, I'm not sure that this word exists...but I know "Cardiff Metro Area" doesn't. Seth Whales 22:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Its been put as unoffical they are thinking of making a metro area for the city to help areas outside the city boundries, this also brings more people to the city and the population for the wider south east wales metro(short for metropoltian!) area they are thinking of making is 1.4million, It makes it look more important as a city in the U.K. The population of the urban area is predicted to be over 349,000 as Caerphilly is now part of this so stop changing it. Also the population in 2006 wasent 317,500 it was more than this it is predicted at 321,500 in 2006 and more now as a lot of houseing developments have gone up in the city. So actualy you've got some things wrong iswell becasue 317,500 is wrong!And also explain this if the urban area u keep puting down 327,000 Caerphilly, Dinis-Powys and Penarth must be little villages! becasue all of them have a much bigger population than 10,000 its more like 60,000 put together! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.207.1.234 (talk) 20:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I've never heard of this proposal of creating a Cardiff Metro Area, do you have any references? Has it been in any of the papers (Echo, Capital Times etc)?
Since when has Caerphilly been included in Cardiff figures? I notice you've also been editing the List of Welsh principal areas by population page as well, giving Cardiff two sets of figures. What's the point of this, aren't you then including certain population figures from Caerphilly CBBC and Vale of Glamorgan twice!--Rhyswynne 09:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
wow you couldnt of searched far! Its under Cardiff Urban Area on wikipedia. The total official population of this urban area was given to be 327,706 in 2001. Growth since 2001 have increased this figure to give a 2005 estimate of 349,756( there you go) i ll admit i aint sure on the Caerphilly one but i have seen it on sites i think it was on the Cardiff Fourm on BBC South East Wales site about a year ago. But the urban area is about 349,000 so leave that and also the population in 2007 for the City is about 325,000 so u can change it to that if you want but its not 317,500 it was 5,000 bigger than that in 2005! never alone 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.207.1.234 (talk) 15:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The discussion seems to be going around in circles..can we not use the official figures for Wikipedia??? So for the 2001 Census it was 305,353 2001 Census and the estimated figure for 2006 from Cardiff Council was 317,500 Latest Official Population Estimates for Cardiff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seth Whales (talkcontribs) 20:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
OK stop changing figures i will carrying on changing it back to what the predections are for 2007 so i dont know why your trying i dont give up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.207.1.234 (talk) 14:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it not worth asking admin to lock this page so that unregistered users can't edit it? I'm of the opinion that we should use official figures or sourced estimates.--Rhyswynne 10:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
The urban area is a sourced estimate by one and only wikiepedia: Growth since 2001 have increased this figure to give a 2005 estimate of 349,756 so leave it at 349,756
As we're all finding out, Wikipedia isn't a reliable source - anyone can just come along and post any old figures (as you well know!). You need to find a reliable source, maybe the following policies from wikipedia will help you: Verifiability (particulalry the bits about Burden of evidence and Sources). There's also a guidelines about Reliable sources and Citing sources. Again, here's a link to a page on Cardiff City Council's website which has estimates for up to 2006. I think you'll agree that the council is a reputable source.--Rhyswynne 14:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photographs

DAdo the photographs accompanying this article give anyone a sense of what Cardiff looks like? Should this not be the purpose of including images? Dave63 10:29, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I reckon the photos should be more integrated in with the article rather than just in a clump at the bottom. Make them slightly bigger too, and possibly less of them. - FrancisTyers 13:51, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Photos and Caroline St

All but two of the photos are not of Cardiff at all, but of Caerphilly and surrounding area.

Whilst an essential visit following a night out, I doubt that Caroline St played a key in the city's industrial history ......

[edit] The lead section

The Wikipedia guidelines state that the first sentence should concisely define the topic. In other words, for a city, it might state where it is, how large it is, and briefly descibe it. This does not include details of history such as which traditional county it is in though it might include a mention of current county or unitary authority. Traditional county details belong further down the article, perhaps in a history section.

This view is also stated in the Naming Conventions policy.

Your revert, Owain, breaches these Wikipedia conventions and guidelines. I'd appreciate it if you would restore the text to my last version. Thanks. Chris Jefferies 28 June 2005 15:38 (UTC)

  1. The first sentence has not changed.
  2. the traditional county has nothing to do with history, but with geography, which is why it is near the top of the article. Owain 28 June 2005 21:52 (UTC)
The policy also states that traditional county information is in the present tense, and should form part of the opening paragraph. Owain 28 June 2005 21:52 (UTC)
it does no such thing. It clearly states that Cardiff is a unitary authority, and that it is geographically in a traditional county - this is allowed by the policy! Please see the edit history for a version that was accepted by both viewpoints. Your unliteral editing has re-ignited the edit war and re-introduced inaccuracies that had already been ironed out. Owain 28 June 2005 21:52 (UTC)

Hi Owain. My mistake over the first sentence, sorry about that. However I cannot agree with you that 'the traditional county has nothing to do with history', surely it has to do with history, geography, government and no doubt other things too. But that's not the point. The point is that however you characterise it it's too detailed and minor a point to appear in the lead section of a Wikipedia article. The current county might be relevant, but the historical county is certainly not.

The fact that it is geographical is not an argument for including it here. For example the name of the main street is geographical but would have no place in the lead section.

The Naming Conventions policy simply does not state that 'traditional county information should form part of the opening paragraph'. Indeed it clearly states 'We should use the current, administrative, county'.

It also states 'We should mention historic counties in articles about places and in references to places in a historic context, but only as an afternote' (my emphasis).

It is a matter of opinion whether your revert breaches Wikipedia conventions and guidelines. My opinion is that it does, your reading of those conventions and guidelines seems to be selective and biased.

I am therefore restoring the text to comply with Wikipedia policy. Chris Jefferies 29 June 2005 11:41 (UTC)

The 'current county' as you put it is simply the local city council - hardly relevant in a paragraph defining where a place is, I'm sure you'll agree. Whereas the 'historical county', as you put it is a specific geographical reference, and I would hardly call that 'too detailed and minor'. Owain 29 June 2005 17:40 (UTC)
That is simply a facetious argument. Clearly the main street has about as much relevance as the city council has in describing where a place is. Yet you seem to think that the mentioning the city council is relevant, and the geographical county is not. I simply fail to see the logic in that argument. Owain 29 June 2005 17:40 (UTC)
I was not quoting verbatim from the policy, I was attempting to explain it. A quote from the policy is "Coventry is in the West Midlands, and within the traditional borders of Warwickshire". That is clearly an opening sentence that mentions both the administrative county and traditional county. Owain 29 June 2005 17:40 (UTC)
Yes, but then it goes on to give 'acceptable things', one of which is to mention the traditional county in the opening sentence! You can quote these things selectively if you wish, but my version is clearly allowed by the policy! Owain 29 June 2005 17:40 (UTC)
I see that you didn't bother checking the edit history, which has evidence of a previous edit war. A factual compromise was reached that was acceptable to both parties, but you seem to want to stir it up again for some reason. My version clearly mentions both administrative and traditional areas in an unambiguous way that is compatible with the policy - what is possibly wrong with that? Owain 29 June 2005 17:40 (UTC)
The policy has not been broken! I refuse to let this article lie, with the prefectly valid and acceptable reference to Glamorgan shoved into the eighth paragraph with the completely factually incorrect "The city once formed part of the county of Glamorgan". I am reverting to the compromise version that was agreed between myself and G-Man. Owain 29 June 2005 17:40 (UTC)

I only put it like that because I knew you would revert it, not because I particularly like it. Frankly I dont see why I should have to compromise with agreed policy and some other position. If were talking about the policy then it clearly states.

Articles about counties should not be split up and should not be disambiguation pages. They should treat the counties as one entity which has changed its boundaries with time. We should not take the minority position that they [traditional counties] still exist with the former boundaries.

But frankly I have no interest in going over this traditional counties argument again. We argued this matter comprehensively at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (places) and your favoured approach recieved only two votes. As far as I'm concearned the matter is settled. G-Man 29 June 2005 21:17 (UTC)

Votes? How can you you have a vote when you don't know what you're voting on? What place to votes have in a factual encyclopaedia anyway? The fact of the matter is that many people don't realise that there are different things that could reasonably be called counties. e.g. ancient counties, registration counties, administrative counties and ceremonial counties. The fact that people such as Chrisjj don't realise this leads them to add factually incorrect sentences such as 'Swansea was part of Glamorgan prior to local government changes'. Local government changes only change administrative counties, not the other three. If you take the position that counties are 'one entity which has changed its boundaries with time' then why the hell are there different ariticles on traditional, administrative and ceremonial counties? Surely counties are one entity that have changed over time? Why the hell have infoboxes got entries for traditional, administrative and ceremonial counties? Surely there is only one set of boundaries that have changed over time? Nonsense. This is dumbing down of the highest order. The whole encycolpaedia is in danger of become self-contradictory at this rate, not just the straitjacket 'policy'. Owain 30 June 2005 11:17 (UTC)
I dont agree, the facts are disputed. The notion that traditional counties still exist in the present tense in any meaningful sense is debatable. And it appears to be a minority position that they do. And before you start I'm well aware of you arguments that traditional counties have never been abolished and still technically exist etc etc. But the question of whether they exist still in any "real world" sense and should be regarded as still existing entities is a matter of opinion. And your opinion appears to be the minority one, hence the result of the vote and the policy. As for Why the hell have infoboxes got entries for traditional, administrative and ceremonial counties? thats a good question, its nothing to do with me. Personally I would prefer that they were called 'historic counties' in the infoboxes rather than 'traditional counties' as it's less confusing. G-Man 30 June 2005 19:05 (UTC)
I strongly agree with G-Man on this. What do other editors of this article think? Comments anyone? Chris Jefferies 30 June 2005 19:18 (UTC)

Hi Owain, I think we need to be careful. This is the Cardiff talk page and I'll try to reply in a way that will benefit the Cardiff article.

The lead section should be brief and to the point, and the entire article should adhere to Wikipedia conventions and policies. The Cardiff lead section should mention that it's a large city, that it's the capital of Wales, that it grew from a small town because of its port and the coal trade, and a few other major pieces of information. This section is a brief summary of the main facts - the first thing a reader sees.

Detailed information belongs further down in the main body of the article. That some people hold the point of view that Cardiff is still part of Glamorgan is something that can be legitimately mentioned in the main body, but NPOV probably requires that we also mention that others do not hold this view.

My opinion is that Cardiff is a unitary authority, was once in the county of Glamorgan, and that some people take the view it's still in Glamorgan. Not all of that needs to be in the lead section. I'd be interested to hear the views of the other editors of this article. Chris Jefferies 30 June 2005 12:02 (UTC)

I am geniunely interested as to when exactly you think Cardiff was in Glamorgan, and why. Owain 30 June 2005 14:55 (UTC)
As Cardiff is a unitary authority, Wikipedia guidelines ([[Naming Conventions, second paragraph, second scentance) suggest that we use the traditional (see Subdivisions of Wales) counties as geographical references. My preference would be to include this information in the lead paragraph. Iain 1 July 2005 10:06 (UTC)
That's almost right. The convention states we should use the ceremonial county which in this case would be South Glamorgan (also see the 1974 section of Subdivisions of Wales. But we should consider keeping the wording short and simple. How about this draft...
Cardiff (Welsh: Caerdydd, from caer, "fort," and dydd, "Aulus Didius") is the capital and largest city of Wales. It is a unitary authority and part of South Glamorgan.
It has the advantages of conforming with both lead section and county naming conventions for a unitary authority. Chris Jefferies 1 July 2005 11:00 (UTC)
That convention is therefore useless. South Glamorgan is a local government area that existed between 1974 and 1996 and is clearly part of a larger area called Glamorgan. The perpetuation of former local government areas as geographical references is clearly absurd, when they were created with the efficient provision of local government services in mind, not in the context of a wider geogeraphic framework. Take any place in Pembrokeshire: The county has existed since the 12th century, it also exists as a unitary authiry since 1996, yet we are supposed to put 'it is in Dyfed'. That is a classic example of where common sense should take priority. The centuries old traditional counties are much better suited to this purpose than local government areas that existed for a mere 22 years! Owain 1 July 2005 14:00 (UTC)
I attempted to stress Cardiff's heritage as Glamorgan's main town/city for generations by including the fact that it was the county town of and centre of admin of Glamorgan and South Glamorgan. This was un and then re-edit, but never the less stresses Cardiff's long-term, regional importance. Owain's changing of county town to county borough fails to stress Cardiff's central importance to the area and puts it in the position of being on an equal level with the other boroughs of Glamorgan.
I also think it's important that Cardiff's conversion into an apparent 'city county' is held in perspective - just like Swansea, Bridgend, Neath, Caerphilly, Port Talbot and the other principal areas of Wales's most populous county, Glamorgan's district councils were all split from their sub-county councils (South, Mid & West Glamorgan) into unitary authorities. The 1994 local government (Wales) Act was not some kind of special status for Cardiff but central government tinkering with the administration of all of Wales.
With regards to the points raised above, geographically South Glamorgan is definitely more accurate than South Glamorgan as there was no North or East Glamorgan county council and the most Northerly point of Glamorgan is in Mid Glamorgan and the most easterly point of Glamorgan is in South Glamorgan. If South Glamorgan is used to describe the geographical location of Cardiff then it betrays the use of the fundamental terms of north, east, south and west (Cardiff is definitely southwest Glamorgan). Anyway, longitude and latitude are already included and I added ceremonial and traditional counties to the info box so any user can choose their favourite, and possibly learn a little about the UK's recent chaotic use of the word "county". So there's no need to argue over which one is more relevant (Traditional). Owen Spedding 13 July 2005 01:09 (UTC)
Hi Owen, it's good to be able to discuss Cardiff for a change instead of policy. Each place deserves to be considered individually, and if you feel there's a good reason to mention Glamorgan in the lead section, then you should definitely make the change. There will always be exceptions to any policy rule and it's important to be flexible, that is what Wikipedia is all about.
The problem we have with Owain's edits is that he systematically changed lead sections of articles on British places wholesale to reflect his (minority) opinions about historic or traditional counties. There was no justification on a case-by-case basis. I suggest you go ahead and change the text as you think fit, or propose the wording here for discussion, as you prefer. (But be aware, others who disagree may change it back - one of the many joys of Wikipedia :-)
Thanks for explaining. Chris Jefferies 09:05, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I want to try and help to resolve this difficult situation. I live in Cardiff, watch the page and a bit saddened about the number of edits which do not actually improve the article, but just flip between opposing views as to whether “in the traditional county of Glamorgan” (or somesuch) should appear in the introduction.

We need some way of stopping the attrition of edits and reverts so we can all get on with life. The only way of doing this is having policies. We have one on the use of county names but it clearly can be read more than one way. The “put Glamorgan in the introduction” camp point to the acceptable Coventry example in the policy: Coventry is in the West Midlands, and within the traditional borders of Warwickshire. The “leave Glamorgan out” camp point to the only as an afternote comment in the policy proper.

There seems to way out but to refine the policy to be explicit about the use of traditional county names in article introductions.

If there was to be such a proposal, we would need to consider the relative value added by referencing current administrative boundaries compared to traditional counties. The current boundaries tell us about the governance of the place, and put it in the context of regional political and service delivery frameworks. The traditional boundaries tell us where it is, with reference to a spatial framework that to all intents and purposes has no current relevance. And people know where it is anyway, because there is a map. --Dave63 11:50, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Both sets of boundaries are important. Yes, the local government boundaries tell us about the governance of the place and the traditional county boundaries tell us where a place is. That's why having both is a good thing. What is especially useful is having a set of boundaries that are outside of the scope of constant political meddling. In that context I would say the traditional county boundaries have plenty of current relevance.
Owen Spedding wrote Owain's changing of county town to county borough fails to stress Cardiff's central importance to the area and puts it in the position of being on an equal level with the other boroughs of Glamorgan.. No it doesn't, a county borough was independent of the county council, whereas municipal boroughs in Glamorgan were not. Owain 12:32, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Roman Name

Hope I don't start a war here. I've edited the 'Roman' part of the article. Linking Cardiff with Aulus Didius Gallus and presenting it as fact is erroneous. Propounded by the Internet, I suspect this idea came originally from a misreading of Tacitus. I won't go into details, but the hypothesis is tenuous almost to the point of being arcane. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it is unlikely. (Posted by User:194.81.116.246 at 15:55, August 10, 2005)

Does anyone have a usable source of someone saying this? If not, it probably should be removed. Vashti 15:35, August 10, 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Cardiff Singer of the World

Shouldn't there some mentioning of this contest, arguably the most recognized contest in classical singing in the world? Especially since Welshman Bryn Terfel, former winner, started his career at the Welsh National Opera.::::::::::OiBrent

[edit] Happy Hundredth

I'm sure there are lots of mentions of Cardiff's centenary on the internet; it would be interesting to know if there are any residents of the city who are a hundred years or older, and who have lived there since it was city-ised in 1905. -Ashley Pomeroy 10:52, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Urban Light Transport realized in Cardiff?

I read that a new way of transportation would be installed in Cardiff by 2003: Urban Light Transport, a mixture of taxis and trams which runs on a given track and carries each passanger to his or her destination (or a stop close to it) without stopping. (source in Hungarian) Has it been realized since? Adam78 11:24, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I remember seeing this demonstrated on the TV. It looks incredibly cool, but there's no sign of it. Vashti 08:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
See article Personal Rapid Transit and the site of the company that proposed the Cardiff plan [4]. Also see this [5] site for links to news stories on the scheme.
AFAIK Cardiff Council are official still behind the scheme, but the last statement saying that is quite old now. The Welsh Assembly were going to fund the majority of the costs, and they pulled their support in 2004, so it is de facto dead. Although I can't ATM point out the evidence it is generally agreed the scheme floundered because of fears about the shear amount of dedicated infrastructure that would use up precious space in the city centre (along with the visual impact of that infrastructure) and that most of the support was built upon unrealistic/false expectations that it could provide all the flexibility of cars/taxis but for the user and government costs of buses. It has also been siad that the scheme (which from the start seems far more suited to uses such as at Heathrow, than for an organic city) was only ever dabbled with by the Assembly as a publicity stunt type thing to attract inward investment.
According to current transport and urban masterplans for Cardiff, the only major public transport schemes considered for the foreseeable future are the conversion of the City line and Coryton line (see Valley Lines) into a light/semi-light rail loop line (more station, more frequent service, etc) with a major park+ride site near M4 Junc 32. Similarly public opinion is still generally leaning towards the much bigger conversion-expansion of the urban commuter lines into the core of a cut-price tram-train network (thou of course, they don't express that in those technical terms). Such a plan as been mooted and proposed innumeral times over the last 2 decades, particular in Assembly in-put into the re-franchising of the local rail operations. First group actually went as far as making it a core commitment of their bid at the last round. (Yet, they lost.) According to experts, chances of it happening soon have been damaged by the Assembly committing to funding the purchase of new trains to replace the worse of the aging rolling stock currently in use. This spring the Assembly finally gets control over rail transport policy (replacing the DfT/SRA), having until now had almost zero influence over the rail operations. Given this, there are significant chances they might decide to make an impact with these new powers, which moving with the conversion would do. Most transport policy document from the Assembly and related bodies have hinted in this direction and related devleopments (such as establishments of one or more PTEs and advances such as electronic ticketing). --Myfanwy 11:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A website about Cardiff

Hello there - I would like to add my site to the list of external sites on the page about Cardiff. I am not going to lie - it's for basically increasing traffic to my site.

I would not add/spam wikipedia by just adding it, so I wondered if you would mind checking it out, and deciding whether it deserves a link from the Cardiff Page.

http://www.cardiffians.co.uk

It's not finshed yet, but there is a LOT of content on there.

Many thanks!

sitemaster AT cardiffians DOT CO DOT UK

As somebody who keeps a very close eye on link-spam, I very much welcome someone making the effort to come to the talk page first, and seek a third opinion. And after a good look through the site, I think it's worthy of inclusion; as far as I can see, it meets "what should be linked to" (5) and doesn't fall foul any of "what shouldn't be linked to" of the external link guidelines. It's a good resource and I'll add it to the external links list now.
(PS - just for your information, the site doesn't display quite correctly in Mozilla, but that's no criterion for exclusion!)

Aquilina 22:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


Hi Aquilina,

Many thanks for having a look at the site, and for allowing for it to be added to the list of external sites on the Cardiff Page. I will of course add a link to Wikipedia (something I should have done a long time ago anyway!)

I am pleased that so far, everyone who has viewed the site has given it favourable reviews. The link from Wikipedia will help no end to increase the site's visability on the internet, and bring more people to the site. This is what spurs me on to keep adding to, and improving the site. I will see what I can do about the Mozilla issue, and appreciate your bringing it to my attention.

Kind Regards,

Cardiffians Sitemaster

[edit] Reverts

I've reverted some of the changes the recent anon made. While much of it was good, some seemed odd - the repeated emphasis on Wales being a principality, the removal of the Welsh for "Cardiff" from the opening together with the emphasis that "less than 25% of the population use Welsh) (by contrast with Wikipedia standard practice as shown in Milan, Florence, Moscow and many other pages), and the deliberate description of Cardiff's universities as "provincial" (a technical term rarely used as it refers to every university which is neither Oxbridge or in London, IIRC). Vashti 08:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Cardiff, you've now reverted these changes back. I don't believe these changes are neutrally worded (see WP:NPOV). What does everyone else think? Vashti 18:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Having just found The Principality of Wales, which appears to be a POV fork of Wales, edited only by User:Cardiff, this is looking *very* peculiar indeed. Vashti 18:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. See Saint David's Day, which I just reverted. Cardiff removed important information, and is not complying with WP:NPOV, IMO. I support your revert, and will do the same myself. I am also checking this user's other contribs.Econrad 18:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. Vashti 19:06, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I've requested temporary page protection. This is getting childish. Vashti 19:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I've also been bold and gone through the differences between the page as it was last night before our friend showed up, and how it was this evening after the last revert, putting material back as it was. While some of the material looked as if it might have been improved, I don't know how much of it can be trusted, or how many of the revisions were accurate. The list of excisions from the "Natives of Cardiff" list, in particular, was shocking. Vashti 20:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cardiff - relatively flat?

What's the source for this one? Being up here on a hill looking at Caerphilly Mountain, the word that springs to mind for Cardiff's landscape is not "flat". Vashti 02:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point, but if you view the city from Caerphilly mountain or other high areas then most of the city is quite flat, especially compared to other parts of Wales! Perhaps it could be changed to 'mostly flat' or something along these lines. Tom1000

Mmm, although if you go to the north and east, around Thornhill, Lisvane and Llanrumney, the mountain begins rising well before you ever leave the city boundary. "Relatively flat" is a little bit misleading when the rest of the sentence could well be "although the hills would be considered significant anywhere else here they happen to be in the shadow of a mountain". Maybe remove the comment so that it starts "Cardiff's geographic features ..."? What do geographers say about Cardiff's terrain? Vashti 03:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Cardiff City has a bowl like landscape, the edges of the city have mountains and so are high up and rocky, but the majority of the city is in the middle of the bowl and flat. 172.207.122.165 (talk) 23:18, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Linkspam

I've removed most of the links from the bottom of the page as not actually being informative about Cardiff. I removed two university departments and one personal blog. I left in the most comprehensive travel guide - I think we only need to link to one of these. I also took out the Wiki link that was added, as it's not yet a very complete Wiki - if anyone wants to go and contribute it's at [6].

The BBC link is the kind of quality page that I think we should be linking to. Vashti 12:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I see an anon has added the wiki page back in again. What's the consensus on this? Vashti 03:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Good work on the external links. As for the cardiffpedia wiki, articles such as:
Cardiff University is one of the biggest Universities in the UK. It has 25,000 students and 5,500 staff and an annual turnover of £300 million. (that's the entire text)
don't add anything to the content here. The link might be worth having once its got some comprehensive in-depth coverage, but for the time being that link is only there for the wiki's benefit, not the reader's. I'd remove it. Aquilina 09:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you. I've removed the link again; we'll see if it comes back. :) Vashti 01:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I confess to having added the link in question at first, but have not re-added so I'm not sure who that was. I guess I should have visited the Talk page before adding it. I accept the critisism that its not yet a comprehensive resource. Hopefully it will be in the future, and can be added by consensus. RobsterCardiff 14:08, 12 June 2006 (BST)
When the wiki is more mature, I would be happy to see it added. :) Vashti 01:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The river Lleucu is new to me. Wherever it flows it cannot be more than a stream. Specific references in the body of the article are suggested for Llandaff Cathedral, the Catholic archbishopric (together with C19 Irish immigration- as well as other patterns of immigration),the historical role of Nonconformity.


Clive Sweeting

[edit] capital.tv

Does anyone else think that a local station broadcasting shopping TV should be listed next to the national TV stations? We haven't listed student radio or the local stations which we've occasionally had, for instance. I've reverted it twice, and the account which was adding it has done nothing else but add plugs for that station. It's been added again by an anon, but I'm reluctant to revert it again. Anyone else? Vashti 12:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cardiff music scene

A new arrival has made a start on a Cardiff music scene article. I have added a couple of categories to it, but I think it needs more facts and references (and bands, probably :)). I don't know much about music in Cardiff, but perhaps someone who watches the Cardiff page might..? Telsa (talk) 10:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coordinates

Two values for coordinates are given: which ones are correct? It would be wise to make the article consistent. -- Casmith 789 16:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Districts

I have added Roath to the list of 'inner-city' districts in the districts section of the article. It seemed foolish to exclude it given that it is described as a district above "areas of and around Canton and Roath" and at the bottom of the page in the list of districts as well as in the article on Roath.

I have also wikilinked the rest of the districts i.e. Penylan and Gabalfa since half the list were linked and the other half not. I suspect it doesn't matter whether they are linked or not due to the aforementioned section at the bottom of the page but there should be some consistency. Grangetown and Riverside no longer lead to disambiguation pages. Kae1is 21:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

The whole page seems to have too much text and not enough photos, so it would be better if there were more photos, or central station perhaps for transport, a picture of queen st or st marys st, and a panorama of the bay? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Apple 123 (talk

contribs) 16:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Domestic Architecture

Having lived in Cardiff before migrating to Australia I remember inner suburbs of striking Victorian and Edwardian terraced houses, many of them stone built. Examples being Cathays, Roath and of course Colum Road! It would be nice to see a reference, and a small photo gallery, of this characteristic urban landscape that is among the best preserved in Britain. MichaelGG 10:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capital of Wales

If Cardiff was declared the Capital of Wales in 1955, but the Assembly wasn't constituted until 1999 (I know the history of devolution), what significance did this have? Presumably it was more than an honorific, but what government functions operated at the Welsh national level? Even the Welsh Office was based in London. All I can find is Category:Welsh executive agencies -- economic development, and the tourist board. --Dhartung | Talk 19:00, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually worked for 5 years at the Welsh Office at Cathays Park from 1969 to 1974. Whilst there was a London Office, that was very much a foreign outpost and regarded as a 'touching base' operation with the 'Saesneg' in London. The vast majority of the staff, the decision making and - during my time there the Secretaries of State (the Hon. George Thomas not to be confused with his successor Peter Thomas) - were very much in residence in Cardiff. MichaelGG4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Postal Code

The article states the postal code as being CF1 to CF6. I live in Cardiff and my postcode starts CF14. So it obviously goes further than CF6. Does anyone know where to obtain a definitive answer to this?

The postcodes used to run CF1-CF6 but a while back (1997 or 1999 I think) they were expanded. I used to live in CF4 and it became CF14, for example. My girlfriend now lives in CF41! Royal Mail would be a sensible place to find this out, probably sending an email would be the way to get a definitive answer. --YFB ¿ 20:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Someone has added a new map that shows the location of Cardiff to be near Bristol and actually places the location dot on the English side of the Severn and this is repeating itself throughout other Welsh pages. Can someone revert it back to the previous map that highlighted Cardiff in a seperate Wales map? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apple 123 (talkcontribs) 16:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Bk logo.jpg

Image:Bk logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 14:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 029

I've merged the article 029 about Cardiff's telephone code into this article, so the 029 page is ready for deletion 82.3.18.24 20:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geography (section)

I have basically copied the sub-sections of the Geography section from Los Angeles, as this section I believed needed to be sub divided to make it clearer...I have also added a Climate Chart as this article needed one. But please edit it to improve the section. Seth Whales 11:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The location box gives the reader an easy and simplified method of understanding Cardiff's location in relation to its wider geography. However I believe it is important see the principal town of the Valleys area, Merthyr Tydfil added. How can you include Caerphilly and Aberdare and not include Merthyr Tydfil. Geraint McCarthy 16:01 GMT, 18 March 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 16:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cardiff's size

I don't understand why people are still stating that Cardiff is the 10th largest city in the UK. Wiki's List of largest United Kingdom settlements by population clearly states that it is the 14th largest, and the List of conurbations in the United Kingdom says that the Cardiff urban area is the 21st largest.

Whoever is stating that Cardiff is the 10th largest city in the country, please provide some sort of reference to back your claim up.Bettia (talk) 09:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

- Cardiff's population is 317,500 ([7]). This makes it the 11th largest city in the U.K. The largest settlements articleon Wikipedia measures it as 292,200 or something but this uses unofficial measurements, I don't know what they're leaving out but Wikipedia has no right to say how populations are measured. Welshleprechaun (talk) 18:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC) Added: This is the CITY population not Urban Area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Welshleprechaun (talkcontribs) 18:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Welshleprechaun, the figures you are using are only an estimate. The figures used on the Wiki article are taken from official census figures, which can be downloaded form the link given at the bottom of the page. Okay, so the population of Cardiff has grown since 2001, but so has the population of every other city in the UK. Bettia :  Talk to me  09:20, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
The list of largest settlements is nothing to do with the city council populations, look at the city of Leeds for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.5.216.227 (talk) 17:18, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Reading through the PDFs given on that site (and in particular the second PDF titled 'Population & Demography 2001 Census in Cardiff Section 2'), it's clear that the estimate figures given are not just for the city of Cardiff but for Cardiff COUNTY - this includes towns such as Radyr and Tongwynlais that fall within the county boundaries but outside the city. Therefore, it's no good for this particular article. B e t t i at a l k  12:17, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
But Radyr and Tongwynlais are part of the city itself. Practically the entire city falls within the county boundaries Welshleprechaun (talk) 15:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
No, Radyr and Tongwynlais are both physically separated from the city. Also, if you look at Cardiff Urban Area, you'll see that Radyr is counted as separate from Cardiff. B e t t i at a l k  16:24, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

But the city and county of Cardiff are the same things, aren't they? Radyr is within the city boundaries, even if it's a separate urban area. I think ONS talks a load of nonsense in some cases, but the list of largest settlements are the official figures Wikipedia uses. Bracknell is part of Reading urban area according to them. Whilst the 2006 figures are only estimates, they are the figures used in the infoboxes, so maybe we should say Cardiff is the 11th and 14th largest city in the UK. 82.5.216.227 (talk) 21:01, 24 December 2007 (UTC) well i live in pentych/tongwynlais/radyr area of the city, and yes it is part of the city just becasue the M4 seperates it dosent mean nothing it is part of the city and the city nd county are actually the same thing, anyway you only have to travel across the city to see the amount of apartments, highrise buildings ect contructed scence 2001 and the increase in the economy ect ect and with this comes a lot of people to the city, not all cities in the U.K are growing hardly any are, as ex PM said Cardiff is a great example of one of a few cities with a growing population so i think Cardiff will be about 9th to 11th in 2011 anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cardiff123098 (talkcontribs) 18:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] River Lleucu?

I've just removed the reference for this, as it was a mirror of this page. When I looked a couple of years ago, I wasn't able to find any reference to this culverted river at all - can anyone provide one? Vashti (talk) 23:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I did a quick Google for it and I found this [8] - I don't know how reliable it is though B e t t i at a l k  12:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Aha. "Nant Lleucu" - as referred to here. But "nant" doesn't mean "river", it means "stream" - and there are several similar streams in Cardiff. It isn't a river; while I have great affection for that stream, it's a piddling thing compared with the Taff, Rhymney or Ely. On that basis, until someone produces a reference which ranks Nant Lleucu with the three major rivers, I'm going to remove that reference. Vashti (talk) 11:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree. It's no more notable than the stream that runs along the edge of Bute Park and along Boulevard de Nantes, and I dare say there's quite a few more. They should either all be mentioned (as streams, not rivers of course), or not at all. B e t t i at a l k  15:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RfC: Cardiff's population & ranking

When referring to Cardiff's population, is it better to use government census figures from 2001 (as I have proposed) or council estimates from 2006 (as Welshleprechaun has proposed)? B e t t i at a l k  16:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I think its insane to use 2001 figures. That was 6 years ago and the population has grown in so much that it's gone up 3 places in terms of largest city. Wikipedia is meant to be as up to date as possible and therefore it is much better to provide the situation last year than that of 6 years ago. The 2006 figure may not be dead exact but its an official educated estimate Welshleprechaun (talk) 17:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of which figures are eventually used, I'd urge people not to use Wikipedia as a reference, as I have seen in the history. Find the official source for the figures and quote that. Vashti (talk) 11:19, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Welshleprechaun's argument has a hole in it wide enough to drive a small planetoid through, in that the part about Cardiff being the 11th largest has been completely fabricated - I can't find a source for the ranking anywhere in the Cardiff demo data. In any contest between the Cardiff authority's estimates and the figures on our list, the figures on our list take precedence. That list contains the actual census figures from the ONS, which trumps any intermediate estimate. 90.203.45.214 (talk) 23:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate WL's concerns about using 2001 information, although I would stop short of calling it insane as it could be construed as an insult simply because these are official government census figures, regardless of how they arrived at that conclusion. I also appreciate his efforts in including both sources in that sentence as a concilatory measure. However, I also agree with the point above as I have also been making that point - we cannot state that Cardiff is the 11th largest city in the UK unless we go to the councils of all the other cities in the UK to see what they are estimating their populations as. Until someone makes the effort to do this (and perhaps record this in the 'List of settlements' article, perhaps as a new column in the table), I would suggest removing this existing statement entirely...

"The official population figures from the 2001 Census place the city as the 14th most populous in the UK, however in 2006 the city and county offical estimates Cardiff as the 11th largest city in the United Kingdom. "

...and expand the opening introductory sentence with something along the lines of

"...with recent local government estimates state the city's population as being 317,500.]]<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.cardiff.gov.uk/content.asp?Parent_Directory_id=2865&nav=2872,3256,3302| title=Cardiff Council 2006 Official Estimate | accessdate=14 December 2007}}</ref>"

This seems to read better and I believe it addresses everybody's concerns regarding verifability and the age of information used. I hope we reach consensus on this soon before this turns into an all-out edit war.

Also, Welshleprechaun has requested that anyone who wishes to edit this particular piece of information should state their reasons why on this talk page, and I totally agree with this. It would also be a whole lot better for people to log in when making edits. B e t t i at a l k  14:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I have included the 11th largest city line and referenced it. Welshleprechaun (talk) 14:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Well that's wrapped things up nicely. Well found WL. B e t t i at a l k  12:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Still flawed, as the list cited claims itself to be using 2001 census data, so therefore does not support the claim that current estimates put it at 11th. 62.121.31.177 (talk) 11:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I've reworded it slightly to suit your comments, but was it really necessary to delete both references? B e t t i at a l k  12:54, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
More worryingly, the numbers on this list (the apparent source), don't tally with our own numbers. I've no idea where they're getting 305,353 from - the official Census tables contain the number 292,150 (which is the number on our list). It should probably be noted that the linked list specifically refers to cities - hence excluding places such as Reading and Dudley - o it isn't really useful as a general reference in other articles either. 90.203.45.168 (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

{{fact}}ed the "11th" statement yet again, as the above flaw has yet to be dealt with. 90.203.45.168 (talk) 17:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Well we've already agreed on it. Yes, the reference has gone, I'll find it again. Welshleprechaun (talk) 18:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

That source is no good. You are claiming that it has moved up and is now the 11th most populous place in the UK. Your source seems to claim it was in 2001 the 11th most populous city, so it can't be used to back up your original claim. Also, because it excludes anything other than settlements with city status, it's not a helpful source to use in general, so you need to make a pretty compelling case to be using it as reference here and nowhere else. 90.203.45.168 (talk) 18:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'll take out the up 3 places clause. This leaves the 11th largest city statement. The references list the largest cities with city status with not settlement and the article statement is talking about city with city status. Welshleprechaun (talk) 18:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

That only serves to introduce more confusion, because our own list of largest United Kingdom settlements by population does not discriminate, and neither do any of our other major location articles - especially down into the 20s where it will make a difference. It makes absolutely no sense to discriminate here and nowhere else. References should support the article - you seem to be changing the article to fit the references. 90.203.45.168 (talk) 18:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Did I mention you're still tying the "11th" claim attributed to a primary school teacher (reliable source?) based on 2001 census data to the 2007 estimate? I think we already went over the part where the census figures trump any and all intermediate estimates, right? 90.203.45.168 (talk) 18:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Most of this has already been discussed (see above). We are not going by list of settlements in the United Kingdom by population because it doesn't use the generally accepted definition of a city. There are not going to be any specific souces saying Cardiff has gone so many places up in terms of population. Instead we are going by the fact that the 2001 census population was this, the 2006 government estimate is this. Comparing the two populations along with the current population of other cities, we can see how many places it has gone up. The references however support the 11th largest city fact, not the up 3 places fact for the above reasons. Welshleprechaun (talk) 18:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

We should be going by our list, for the sake of consistency. Those figures are verified against the ONS census data, and use fair and consistent criteria across the board. You have yet to provide a reason why this article should go against this convention. 90.203.45.168 (talk) 18:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has no right to give its own definition of a city. It, for example, give Radyr as outside of Cardiff's city limits which is incorrect. We shouldn't go by this because it does not use the generally accepted definition of a city and other editors agree. Would you please read this entire section above, including, the Cardiff's size section. Welshleprechaun (talk) 18:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you please explain why this article should use different criteria from any other? 90.203.45.168 (talk) 18:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
It occurs to me that your complaint is in the wrong place. You disagree with the definition of the area of Cardiff that we are using for the population ranking list. The definitions we have used are precisely those by the ONS - the figure on the big list next to Cardiff is precisely what the ONS listed in the census data next to "Cardiff". If you disagree with this definition, then the appropriate venue for your complaint is not this talk page - you want to email info@statistics.gov.uk to tell the ONS they've got it all wrong. 90.203.45.168 (talk) 18:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I did a quick Google for lists of the UK's largest cities and found the following results:

With so many variations (including the 14th place quoted by the census figures), I now feel it would be too unsafe to quote any sort of ranking with regards to Cardiff's size. For the sake of maintaining this article's accuracy, I suggest we stick to simply stating Cardiff's estimated population. B e t t i at a l k  09:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry you guys, I didn't know that you'd already had this debate. Anyhow, the 'official' stats from ONS make Cardiff the 14th biggest city and 21st biggest conurbation - consistent comparisons from 2001. This is more accurate than saying "it's one of the largest cities in the UK" - which is entirely subjective. Largest if you mean top 20, not if you mean top 10 or top 5! http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_compendia/fom2005/03_FOPM_UrbanAreas.pdf http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/census2001/ks_ua_ew_part1.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_United_Kingdom_settlements_by_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conurbations_in_the_United_Kingdom Pondle (talk) 23:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I've changed 14th largest city to largest settlement if we're gonna go with this statistic because the city area would include areas such as Radyr which the settlement excludes for some reason Welshleprechaun (talk) 00:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at this debate, a lot of the issues appear to be down to the fact that there are two separate definitions of a city. The first definition is that of Local Authority, which is the 317,000 figure; and the second is that of Urban Sub-division (or settlement), which is the 292,000 figure. Both methods of measurement have their positives, and both have their negatives.
If we first look at using local authorities as our definition, then there are several issues with that, which can best be shown by example. Pretty much everyone agrees that London is the largest city within the United Kingdom, but the City of London (which is the relevant local authority) has a tiny population. There are many local authorities that do not tie in with the general usage of "city" in British English, such as City of Leeds that contains other substantial towns which quite clearly are separate from Leeds itself; or perhaps City of Carlisle, which is mostly rural areas. There are also large towns which do not have a local authority named after them, such as West Bromwich or Huddersfield. There are even some cities in this situation, such as Inverness or Hereford, as well as local authorities that by no definition are towns, such as East Riding of Yorkshire. On the other hand, local authorities have generally well-known boundaries, and are well understood.
Taking the Settlement (or Urban Sub-Division) figures, they are based upon the actual built-up areas. Within conurbations, it looks at the pre-1974 boundaries to see if an area was considered to be a built-up area (i.e. an Urban District or Municipal Borough) before then. If not, then clearly the settlement has expanded in that direction, and hence can spill out of its local authority boundaries where these are tightly drawn (such as Reading). On the other hand, if the area was built-up prior to 1974, then it is generally considered to be a separate settlement. The problem with this method of measurement is that it is less well understood, and can produce results different to the local authority method.
Imagine, if you will, that the old county of Glamorgan was reconstituted as a single-tier local authority - then both Cardiff and Swansea would disappear from the local authority figures, but would still appear in the settlement lists; and Glamorgan would suddenly appear as one of the largest UK cities by that method - which quite clearly it wouldn't be in any meaningful sense. Interestingly, the UK goverment simply defines cities by listing them
The problem with then comparing and using rankings are twofold. Firstly, all figures need to use the same form of calculations, whether that be by local authority or by settlement. Secondly, all figures must come from the same time - it is impossible to compare a collection of 2001 data with some 2007 estimates in this way. You wouldn't compare the 1911 population of, say, Belfast with the 1981 figure for Leicester!
In short, both methods have value, but care needs to be taken when looking at comparisions, and it should be made clear which methodology is being used. Hope that helps! Fingerpuppet (talk) 12:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

We are using consistent Census 2001 data on settlements and urban areas here, specifying our terms and our sources. Obviously an LA comparison produces different results. But some cities are underbounded and some are overbounded, making direct comparisons of LAs rather less useful.Pondle (talk) 17:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Castles

After going through the list of castles given in the History section, I have removed the following:

  • Ruperra Castle (this actually appears to be in Caerphilly, not Cardiff)
  • King's Castle (this appears to be nothing more than a fortified manor house, rather than a castle)

If anyone has any information on the last one, please re-add it. B e t t i at a l k  —Preceding comment was added at 15:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Telecommunications

is this section relevant, I've never seen it on a city article. Michellecrisp (talk) 05:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

You're certainly right about it not being mentioned on any other city article and the section does border on trivial, but would keeping this information harm the article as it stands? It's certainly of limited importance so perhaps simply shifting the section it to the bottom of the page would be better, as well as tidying up the introductory sentence. B e t t i at a l k  10:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External links

I deleted those two links because, in my view, they go against WP:EXT guidelines:

  • Menter Iaith has its own wiki article, therefore any links for it should go only into that article and not here. In the Links to be avoided section of WP:EXT, item 14 states "Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article." This link clearly falls within that guideline.
  • The Chinese Community Services link is purely an advertisment for a special event, therefore it should not be linked at all. Besides, the Chinese community in Cardiff is very small compared to the many other communities that make up our city, such as Indian, Pakistani and Arab. Should we put a link to each and every website for these communities too?

B e t t i at a l k  14:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, thank you for pointing out the relevant guidelines. Although Menter Caerdydd itself has no wiki article (Menter Iaith only describes what a Menter Iaith is), I accept it's only indirectly related to the article. I hadn't read the content of the Chinese Community Services site thoroughly enough. --Rhyswynne (talk) 11:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cardiff to FA

I want to get this article to Featured Article status. It certainly has all the makings. So who wants to join me? -MichiganCharms (talk) 19:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It would be good to see this article get to that stage. First we need to make sure all the 'pending tasks' at the top of the page are done: -
  • Expand introduction: three paragraphs would be good.
Y Done
  • Add economic data to industry section, possible renaming "Economy and industry" with subpage Economy and industry of Cardiff if required. Include GDP & employment stats (they mightbe available in this PDF file, or from local authority site). Mention major economic sectors and employers, with stats where possible. Tourism might fit better in this section, at least, when looking at it in terms of how many people visit the city and how much money they bring in.
Y Done (but no subpage - is it needed?)
  • Possible demographics section, with info on population, including changes and structure. Also include any census data that looks interesting.
Y Done
  • Expand history, with subpage History of Cardiff. Is the fairtrade city thing notable enough to be mentioned here rather than a subpage?
N Not done (just a timeline at the moment, full History of Cardiff page still to be produced)
  • Either a geography section, or two new sections: "physical geography" and "Areas and transport".
Y Done
  • Incorporate the existing transport section, but turn it into prose. Include statistics on transport if available.
Y Done
  • Describe the situation and landscape, e.g. beside the Bristol Channel and at the estuary of the Taff. Is it on the river's floodplains, or on hilly terrain? Briefly mention the underlying geology.
Y Done
Y Done
  • If there are not many areas and suburbs of the city, briefly mention them all. Otherwise describe some of the notable ones and create a List of places in Cardiff article.
Y Done
  • In the politics section mention the four constituencies and who represents them. Has Cardiff been home to any really notable national politicians, or political activists who have made a major contribution to national life? Currently the only mention of the Welsh Assembly is in a photo caption. This might be the best section to mention it in.
Y Done
  • If possible expand the education section. For example, how many schools are there? See Bristol#Education for ideas for what to mention.
Y Done
  • If possible mention a little background on the city's town twinning, if there's anything interesting to say.
Y Done
  • "Natives of Cardiff" should be a category, but many of the more notable ones could be mentioned elsewhere in the article, e.g. historical figures in history and cultural figures in culture.
Doing... (notable musical artists and politicans are mentioned, but no sportsmen, entertainers, historical and cultural figures etc)
  • In my (Joe D (t)) opinion the article should be reorganised somewhere along the lines of: Geography, History, Economy, Culture, Politics, Demographics, Education, in order to better reflect the importance of each aspect of the city.
Y Done (more or less)
  • CITE SOURCES!
Doing... (most sources are done but there are still some sections that need citing)

Once these are addressed, I think the next stage would be a peer review to see if there's anything else that should be done before going for FA status. B e t t i at a k i l 09:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Overhaul of History

This is certainly a chore, using the timeline as a guide and with limited sources. Any help at all would be appreciated. -MichiganCharms (talk) 08:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe these can help → [12] B e t t i at a k i l 11:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I've got access to a few useful sources and will contribute as and when I can. However, given the length of the Cardiff article I suggest we focus on completing the History of Cardiff article first. Pondle (talk) 09:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I've changed my mind since the 'History' article is badged as a timeline and is comprehensive - would we really want to meddle with it? I will make some revisions to the section in this article instead. Pondle (talk) 11:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Castell Morgraig

I have removed Castell Morgraig from the article because it is clearly in Caerphilly and not Cardiff. See source Welsh sites www.castlewales.com etc. Seth Whales (talk) 11:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Primate city?

I have never seen an academic source identify Cardiff as a primate city. The Wikipedia article on the subject - itself lacking in citations - cannot be cited as a reliable reference. London is clearly the UK's primate city, Cardiff is a regional centre. The classic definition of a primate city is: "A country's leading city is always disproportionately large and exceptionally expressive of national capacity and feeling. The primate city is commonly at least twice as large as the next largest city and more than twice as significant." (Mark Jefferson, 1939). Clearly Cardiff is bigger than Swansea or Newport but it is not twice the size - see the discussion on User:Welshleprechaun's talkpage. Other elements of the definition are subjective. [13] [14]Pondle (talk) 23:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a repetition of my reasons for rejecting the view that Cardiff is a primate city, as noted on my talkpage.

  • 1. Size. Using consistent data, Cardiff is not at least twice the size of Swansea (the next largest city). If we compare Census 2001 stats for built-up areas: Swansea - 169,880 Cardiff - 292,150; Census 2001 stats for wider urban areas: Swansea - 270,506 Cardiff - 327,706;[15] Census 2001 stats for local authorities: Swansea - 223,301 Cardiff - 305,353.[16]
Cardiff is smaller than Bristol, which is roughly the same distance away. Bettia (talk) 12:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
  • 2. Political significance. No-one disputes the fact that Cardiff is home to the National Assembly of Wales and most of the Assembly Government senior civil servants, but remember that unlike some other capitals, the Welsh Assembly Government also has national administrative offices in other towns and cities (including Merthyr, Carmarthen, Newtown, Swansea, and soon Aberystwyth and Llandudno). Also, while Cardiff has the lion's share of Welsh national institutions, some are outside the city - the National Library of Wales is in Aberystwyth, the Wales National Pool in Swansea, the National Velodrome is in Newport, various bodies like the Urdd, different unions etc. have their HQs outside Cardiff.
  • 3. Expression of national feeling. This is subjective, but I think that the sense of Welsh national identity in Cardiff is arguable, as witnessed by the 1999 devolution referendum result when a majority in Cardiff voted against devolution - see Denis Balsom's Three Wales model discussed [here http://www.swansea.ac.uk/history/research/Wales%20the%20Postnation.pdf] Pondle (talk) 00:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

Hey. Cardiff should not be declared to be a primate city until reliable, secondary sources are given. Find some credible article somewhere that says that Cardiff is a primate city, and then it can be added. Until then, the use of all that data for population and political significance is pure original research. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 04:02, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moving the castles sub-section

I think that the 'castles' sub-section of history should be moved to landmarks. It's breaking the chronological flow at the moment - and that's the organising principle of the rest of this section. Any objections? Pondle (talk) 10:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. Bettia (talk) 11:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article too long?

I dare say everyone here will have noticed the Too Long tag placed at the top of the page. Looking at the size guidelines, I can see where the concern comes from (the page is currently 86KB and the guideline says anything over 60 probably should be broken up), but personally I think this page would count as one of the occasions where 'the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time' - this city has a lot of history and modern day points of interest, and therfore plenty of encylopedic material. For the time being, I believe it would be better to keep working on the history section, collect references for the parts tagged as unreferenced, and generally ironing out any problems.

Obviously, the Too Long tag shouldn't be deleted until consensus is reached. What's everyone else's thoughts on this matter? Bettia (talk) 15:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Total size is 294k only 5% over Boston: Cardiff generates 300,654 bytes (294k) of HTML page code, including tables (but not image sizes). However, I also reduced image sizes cutting 180kb so that the page displays faster and more narrow on 800x600 screens. Comparing Cardiff's 294k to Boston's 280kb, Cardiff is only 5% larger than the Boston article. I think the formatted size of 294k is large, but I don't know which sections are adding most. Another large article, Morocco, had 100k in the bottom hidden navboxes, but there were 18 navboxes, while the 7 navboxes for Cardiff span only 25kb. I suspected the Climate Table was huge, but only 26kb, athough a simple numeric table would add much less. I don't know what else to fix to reduce the Cardiff size. Considering Cardiff's 294k is only 5% above Boston's 280k, and the images were made 2x faster today, I think we could agree to untag "Too Long". Who objects still? -Wikid77 (talk) 12:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
  • It is well structured. Best to do some pruning here - I vote to remove the tag --Snowded (talk) 05:52, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it's too long, it affects its readability. The history section is excessively long especially when it has its own article. The amount of K is only an indicator of length. "Too long" mainly refers to readability. There's a lot of good info that probably deserves its own article. Michellecrisp (talk) 00:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Welshleprechaun's already started us off on the History section and it seems Seth Whales has been busy on that subject too, if his sandbox is anything to go by. I guess the Economy and Industry section could be also sub-articled - there's quite a lot of stats provided by the council which could be expanded upon. Bettia (talk) 11:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Michellecrisp (talk) 15:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Panorama of Cardiff City Hall now unscrolled image

09-April-2008: Today, the wide scrolling image for Cardiff City Hall had become a massive 10x larger scroll region. I couldn't get the MSIE browser to reduce the region, so I converted the image to a quick, static panorama that seems to look ok as it spans the screen. If someone can get the Template:Panorama_simple to reduce the scrolling region, then restoring the shifting image would be OK. However, it seems to look ok as a static wide image and allows the article to display much faster than as a scroll-region. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:01, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Best" school

I removed the reference to there being a "best school" for several reasons. Using ESTYN data on exam results (which if used should be referenced by a link) assumes that the secondary school with the highest score, using one way of measuring exam results, is the best. A primary school might out perform it, a school in an impoverished area might have worse results but be doing a better job with its core material. --Snowded (talk) 05:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Disliked?

Okay, as someone from the U.S., watching the various "making of"s and "behind the scene"s and interviews of several BBC tv shows, it seems that Cardiff is regarded as the armpit of the empire. There's been a ton of jokes made about it. Nothing on the page, which is somewhat understandable. Someone care to explain why it's viewed that way?Mbourgon (talk) 14:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Having watched most of those shows I have no idea what you are talking about. No one that I know in Britain really talks about Empire anymore, let alone armpits. I haven't heard any jokes - or seen them on the BBC (although irony is not well understood in the US and is often misinterpreted). Perhaps you can provide an example? --Snowded (talk) 16:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)