Talk:Carbon fiber

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[edit] Article was getting spammy and talking only about uses not properties and manufacturing

Therefore I took out all the content which was gathering spammer attention, see bottom of this page. Do not add it back. See "Old content, do not add back, create new article for Uses of carbon fibre if you must" at the bottom.

Many common uses are found already in Graphite reinforced plastic article.

[edit] name

"Carbon fiber" is not the name of the composite! See composite materials and GRP vz. fiberglass.

Egil 00:55 Jan 26, 2003 (UTC)

I agree. the whole carbon-fiber / crp / cfrp mess needs some also laminate and lamination. --Iediteverything 16:03, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'd be interested in seeing some information about the history of carbon fiber, but had a hard time finding anything on the web. According to this page:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3131165.stm

It was invented in by the RAE in Farnborough, Hampshire. It seems like it was developed in the 1960's and became commonly available in the 1990's, but I haven't found an authoritative source for that.

[edit] Manufacturing process

The article states that the mould for CRPs is first evacuated, then the epoxy is filled in. Is this correct ? I remember a process where first epoxy is filled in, then plastic sheets laid over the composite, then air drained below the plastic sheets , to remove superfluous epoxy and to increase the amount of fibre percentage in the composite.--Iediteverything 07:19, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think you are talking about vacuum bagging, while the process mentioned on the page is resin infusion [1] [2] or vacuum infusion. Vaccum bagging is a method to place pressure on the CFRP while the epoxy cures. With resin infusion, a refinement on vacuum bagging, the CF and form are layed out dry, which makes is it useful for large or complicated forms. The vacuum is created and used to suck resin into the bag, which serves the same purpose as in vacuum bagging (good fiber/resin ratio, etc.). So really the two methods are very similar and work the same way; the main difference is how and when the resin is applied. Resin infusion is a bit newer and vacuum bagging seems more common, so I guess both methods should be mentioned. That paragraph needs to be worked over anyway. PlatinumX 09:21, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There's no mention of pre-impregnated (pre-preg) material, either.

[edit] The "See also"s

What's with these lks? Why shouldn't they just be dumped? If there's a reason, why can't they become inline links instead of non sequiturs?

== See also ==

They are analogous materials, basically included as a navigational aid. Someone might be interested in composite materials in general, and not have a tabbed browser. This allows them to move on to the next one when they finish reading this article. Perhaps we can do without the graphite link, though...I'll go ahead and remove it, but I won't object if someone puts it back.--Joel 17:23, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't have a tabbed browser: i have a Back tool built in to my browser, and when i want to backtrack and branch, that's what i do rather than plan on some editor guessing at where i want to go next.
Readers come to this article not primarily from any one place such as Graphite-reinforced plastic or whatever page you're thinking of, but from about 100 different pages. I came to it from Yo-Yo Ma, so for me the related material is Wood. I'm not about add Wood to the see alsos, but IMO the 3 existing ones are as bad an idea as the explicitly deprecated scheme of trying to outthink the reader by deciding Argentina/Transportation is a good title because people who read it want to know other things about Argentina (and not about transportation), and the cure is to ditch the entire section.
--Jerzy·t 19:05, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I saw it as serving the same purpose as the failure modes sidebar in buckling, corrosion, thermal shock etc. In fact, I think we should have a {{structural composite materials}} template (including wood!) for this kind of thing, but if "see also"s are not a good way to accomplish this, so be it. It's a higher priority for me to relink all those "carbon fiber" links to graphite reinforced plastic where appropriate, but perhaps some time I'll put in the effort to make a good template.--Joel 22:57, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] carbon fibre vs nanotubes

obvious question: what is the difference between the two? is it simply that fibres are a graphite-like sheet and tubes are a graphite-like tube? does that difference really affect the properties so much? mastodon 20:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page Name

Any reason that the page is called "Carbon fiber" but it is continuously referred to as "carbon fibre" (which as an Australian I prefer)? Zarboki 10:07, 16 April 2006 (UTC) i want check it

No answer, was the stern reply. So I will move it to Carbon fibre. Not looking to fixing all the links tho, but needs must. Moriori 22:39, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

answer while the fibers are alternate layers of graphite, not necessarily rolled up, the nanotubes are little compose pipes from sheets of closed graphite on if same and all forms an only separate molecule. they're more resistant and some are supercondutors. translated frame from the Italian

[edit] Lighter than aluminum, stronger than steel?

ive heard of this but its not mentioned on this page how its strength and weight compare to steel and aluminum. anyone know?

Sahuagin 04:30, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why people don't run a spell check or other basic grammar service before they post. Stackleschwien 20:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why people would go around policing the internet for grammar and spelling, completely ignoring the perfectly understandable question that the guy asked. Try not being such an asshat if your have the maturity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Papajohnin (talk • contribs) 13:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect Redirect

Cuben Fiber incorrectly redirects to Carbon Fiber. From the manufacturer's page:

The name 'Cuben Fiber' was made up by the press in 1992 as a short for the 'America Cube Fiber' that contained a mix of carbon and polymer filaments.

[edit] Epoxy Boards

Should be Glass-Epoxy boards. Epoxy, Polyester and Vinylester resins can be used in carbon fibre laminates. The author refers to the use of carbon versus glass as the fibre component of the composite materials.

Feuser 20:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Music

Do instruments made of carbon fiber instead of wood make different sounds? Does a carbon fiber bow, used with a normal wooden instrument, produce different sounds? LordAmeth 16:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fire rating of Carbon Fiber aircraft components v's aluminium components.

Can anyone give enlightenment on this topic? 203.128.81.210 06:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Structure and properties

"It has high electrical and low thermal conductivity."

It has high electrical conductivity.

This can not be right? Carbon Fibre is used as an insulator so how can it have high electrical conductivity? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.231.230 (talk) 00:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, carbon has always been a conductor (some say a semiconductor) used in the manufacturer of resistors and other electronic components (at least since the 1920s).

The thickness of pure carbon and its level of impurities changes its resistance. When you cover it with epoxy or other resins, only then can it be used as an insulator.

I have seen carbon fiber reinforced insulators where fiberglass was not strong enough for the job, but alone, it will conduct. --X42 18:57, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old content, do not add back, create new article for Uses of carbon fibre if you must

[edit] Uses

Many common uses are found already in Graphite reinforced plastic article. No need to add this back here.

Carbon fiber is most notably used to reinforce composite materials, particularly the class of materials known as carbon fiber reinforced plastics. This class of materials is used in aircraft parts, high-performance vehicles, sports equipment such as racing bikes, radio controlled vehicles, wind generator blades and gears and other demanding mechanical applications; a more thorough discussion of these uses, including composite lay-up techniques, can be found in the carbon fiber reinforced plastic article.

Carbon fiber is one of the leading materials used in Formula One car production since the introduction of the fiber into common commercial use in the early 1980s.

Non-polymer materials can also be used as the matrix for carbon fibers. Due to the formation of metal carbides (i.e., water-soluble AlC), bad wetting by some metals, and corrosion considerations, carbon has seen limited success in metal matrix composite applications; however, this can be improved by proper surface treatment, e.g., for carbon-aluminium MMCs a vapor deposition of titanium boride on the fibers is often employed. Reinforced carbon-carbon (RCC) consists of carbon fiber-reinforced graphite, and is used structurally in high-temperature applications, such as the nose cone and leading edges of the space shuttle.

The fiber also finds use in filtration of high-temperature gases, as an electrode with high surface area and impeccable corrosion resistance, and as an anti-static component in high-performance clothing.

Generally, within the realm of design and marketing there is a trend toward use of carbon fiber to imply a technical construction (for the given item) or associate it with traditional uses (i.e. military, or high performance) to attract a certain demographic. This is best noted in the increasing prevalence of carbon fiber in jewelery (e.g. Montblanc), pens (e.g. Caran d'Ache), and watches (e.g. TAG Heuer).

[edit] Musical instruments

Some string instruments, such as guitars and members of the violin family are being fabricated of carbon fiber reinforced composite. XOX Audio Tools, makes a Monocoque carbon fiber electric guitar, the Handle. There is also a company specializing in Carbon Fiber wind instruments offering bagpipe chanters, tin whistles and flutes currently manufacturing product.

For over a decade, a number of drum companies such as Tempus and Rocket Shells have been using carbon fiber in their kits and individual snare drums. Carbon fiber solves a number of problems inherent to wood drums and is especially beneficial when used in drums used by drum corps and marching bands, which are typically worn while played. There is also a company called Carbonlite making a lightweight drum rack and cymbal boom arms out of carbon fiber.

[edit] Utensils

Knife manufacturers sometimes use carbon fiber for functional purposes, such as creating lightweight handles and scales. Some also use carbon fiber inserts for decorative purposes. An entire knife can be constructed from carbon fiber.

[edit] Vehicles

Many high-end frames for road bikes and mountain bikes are made of carbon fiber reinforced composite. Some velomobiles use a monocoque body constructed with carbon fiber.

It is also widely used to enhance the look of automobiles and reduce weight. Many of the "tuner" style cars have carbon fiber hoods or other components to reduce weight. Another use is in the increasingly popular hobby of RC cars, many high-end kits come with many carbon fiber parts due to their light weight and attractive appearance. Many high-end performance car manufacturers use carbon fiber extensively, such as Ferrari and Lamborghini, which use carbon fiber to make the car chassis, body panels, and even car seats.

In motorsports, carbon fiber is often used to construct bodywork or a monocoque chassis. This trend started in Formula 1 and has gradually been adopted in other forms of motor racing.

Aprilia RSV Nera, with full carbon fiber body

Disassembled fuselage section of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner

Newer designs of aircraft are beginning to make increased use of carbon fiber composities. For example, the Airbus A380 uses many CFRP components. The even newer Boeing 787 Dreamliner will be the first passenger jet with a main wing and fuselage (body) made entirely out of carbon fiber. This is one of the main causes of the current worldwide shortage as Boeing have bought up most of the world's output for the new 787.

Carbon fiber is also used by skateboard companies to make strong lightweight skateboards for all types of skating, mainly downhill speedboarding. It is also used in many composite longboards to stiffen an otherwise very flexible board.

In surfing, carbon fiber is emerging as a very high-end (and very expensive) board construction material, exhibiting even higher strength and lighter weight than epoxy boards.

A Bicycle helmet with carbon fiber inserts.

[edit] Sports equipment

Carbon fiber is used on racing yachts, rowing boats, kayaks and canoes, as well as on the paddles and oars used with them. Its use has allowed boat builders to produce stiffer and lighter boats. Carbon, along with other artificial fibers, has replaced more traditional laminated wooden or fiberglass constructions. As well as these water sports, carbon fiber is also used in the construction of water skis from Goode Ski Technologies of Ogden, Utah.

Carbon fiber is a prime material for use in archery. Many modern-day arrows are made as either aluminium-carbon composites or entirely of carbon fiber. Limbs can also have a laminate system, consisting of carbon fiber sheets alternated with materials such as foam. This makes the bow faster and smoother to shoot. Another use in archery is in the bow's riser, for both recurve and compound bows. More risers nowadays are beginning to have carbon fiber parts, which makes them lighter, and there are several companies that have made full carbon-fiber risers (including Carbofast and KG), with at least 3 currently in production (Win&Win, FiberBow the first in total carbon, and High Country Archery[compound]).

In cycling, the use of carbon fiber for both frames and different components became commonplace in the late 90s/early 2000s, a notable early example being Chris Boardman's full-carbon monocoque Lotus frame, which he rode in the 1992 Olympic Games in Barcelona in track events. This so-called 'carbon revolution' resulted in the production of bicycles with weight-to-stiffness characteristics that had never been seen before, eventually leading to the almost-exclusive use of carbon as a material of choice in high-end competition bicycles in all disciplines of the sport. Today, carbon-fiber frames are quite common even in the non-sponsored amateur ranks (nevertheless they are still quite expensive), along with many types of components, e.g. wheels, handlebars, seat pillars etc.

Fishing rods are often made of carbon fiber: this started during the 1970s. Prior to that, heavier glassfiber rods were used.

High-end sports kites are framed using carbon fiber spars, taking advantage of the low weight and high rigidity of the material. Cheaper pultruded spars are still popular but "wrapped" and conical spars are now standard in high-end kites. Manufacturers include Skyshark, Aerostuff and Avia.

In track and field events, carbon fiber has been used in newer designs of pole-vault poles, to add rigidity while reducing weight, javelins for the same purpose, and the discus, to increase the percentage of rim weight for higher spin.

Carbon fiber is used in lacrosse and hockey stick shafts and curling brooms. Pure carbon-fiber sticks are rare due to the brittleness of carbon fiber. In these sticks carbon fiber is often found in composites.^[1]

Carbon fiber is also used in many paintball products. Carbon fiber barrels, tanks, and triggers are not uncommon in aftermarket paintball parts.

Carbon fiber can also be found in shoes. Nike, in particular, uses foot-length carbon fiber spring plates in high-end basketball shoes like the Air Jordan XI. These plates are found between the outsole and the midsole, usually partially exposed along some stretches of the sole.

In sailing and yacht racing, traditionally wood, and then aluminum, were used to form components such as spars. Some newer sailboat designs incorporate carbon fiber materials for these parts to reduce weight. An example of this is the Pixel, which sports a carbon-fiber mast.^[2]

[edit] Photography equipment

Several photographic tripod manufacturers, including Manfrotto and Gitzo, employ carbon fiber in their professional range tripods, due in large part to its lightweight properties and its comparable strength to aluminum, the material most consumer tripods are made from.

Toyo View also produces a 4x5 large format view camera made partially from carbon fiber, mostly used in this case to cut down on the high weight of a standard large format camera.

[edit] History of Carbon Fiber

I am adding a history section to the page in response to a request for it. I am also going to cite all questionable sources. The page needs to be reformatted completely in order to contain sources that are not questionable, and the article needs to contain sources that are unbiased. I would like the overall ethos of the page to be unbiased and have credibility as if the information in the article would depend on a life and death situation. There needs to be a clear structure and properties section in the article, meaning I will have to delete the whole section in order to include an unbiased defintion of carbon fiber and its structural properties. The "uses of carbon fiber" section will also need to be revised. The section now includes information about its composite material nature; however, the section really needs to include everyday uses of the material, such as in the Boeing 787, bicycles, cars, etc. --Carbonfibguy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.210.59.39 (talk) 17:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See also

Tenax

[edit] External links

[edit] Dangers/hazards

The title says it all. This section is needed especial because of the reference to asbestos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.237.7 (talk) 05:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Micron or Micrometer?

Working in a communications field, we've always used the term "Micron" when referring to billionths of a meter. I've come to understand that in general practice this has become an archaic term now. I changed "5-8 micrometers" under "Structure and properties" to "5-8 microns" partially because the "micrometer" portion linked to the tool and not the unit of measurement. Aside from the link being incorrect, I understand that I may be in the wrong on this change and would like some feedback. Crmadsen (talk) 07:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed micron is still in wide use, but is incorrect, as you yourself state. The problem here is that micrometer links to the insturment and micrometre links to the measurement. Its a UK vs US spelling difference (and should probably be addressed with a single disambiguation page rather then different spellings leading to different articles). Since this particular article uses US spelling throughout, it was linked to the wrong article, I changed it back to read micrometer but link to micrometre and removed your change to micron. Russeasby (talk) 14:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I neglected to mention I work in a MILITARY communications field, we're chock full of archaic terms. I probably should have made the fix you suggested, thank you for the feedback. 153.29.46.60 (talk) 10:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Well "micron" and "micrometer" or "micrometre" both mean one millionth of a meter. AFAIK "micron" has NEVER meant a billionth of a meter in archaic communications or anywhere else.220.239.190.75 (talk) 17:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Micron has always been a term to indicate a micrometer that (believe it or not) is still in use in some fields, despite the fact it is frowned upon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micron EDIT: I see what you're saying, that was my mistake; pardon. I hear "billionths of a meter" so often it just sticks.Crmadsen (talk) 12:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Biodegradable?

If it was soaked in water, would bacteria be able to eat the carbon fiber? Puddytang (talk) 20:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Consistency

I think the article would flow much better if the entire thing was fiber or fibre as opposed to switching back and forth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.212.24 (talk) 21:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Much as it pained me, being a true Brit, I've changed all instances (I hope!) to fiber. the wub "?!" 23:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Competition" sport?

"The properties of carbon fiber such as high tensile strength, low weight, and low thermal expansion make it very popular in aerospace, military, and motorsports, along with other competition sports."

Isn't the word "competition" tautological here? Or is there some specific meaning of the phrase "competition sports" intended?

A more specific phrase might be preferable. eg Mind Sports would seem to come under the general heading of "competition sports", yet this whole category has little use for carbon fibre.

81.86.230.24 (talk) 13:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)