Talk:Carbine

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[edit] Older comments

A gun that looks similar to a rifle but is slightly smaller and is designed to take the shorter and less powerful pistol cartridges.

This does not sound like the U.S. Military's M1 Carbine. Does anyone have a better description? --- Jagged

With all due respect to the US Military, this has been the meaning of the word "carbine" since somewhere in the 17th century. But by all means add a second description ...

There were no cartridges in the 17th century.

No, but carbines still used pistol-sized ammo. I suppose I could get snotty and go find an early example of a carbine without a rifled barrel now! But if you really need to define things in terms of your personal experience, I'll let you win this one. Be happy

Yes carbine muskets do exist and I have changed the text to reflect this. However at least during the mid-1700's they did not use pistol sized rounds (pistols used 45-50 caliber, carbines 65 caliber and muskets 65-75 caliber). ---rmhermen

Perhaps someone will incorporate the story of "Carbine" Williams before I get to it. <>< tbc

/Talk

The example is incorrect - and the mistake is one I once made myself. The confusion arises from the fact that although the weapons have the same bore diameter, they are of different caliber.

The part about carbines generally being shorter, and (in olden days) intended for use on horseback, is correct.

The M1 Carbine is a distinct weapon from the M1 Rifle. They shoot different ammunition. The cartridge fired from the M1 Carbine has a small straight sided case and light bullets, and is a relatively low powered weapon (for instance, it is not legal for hunting deer in most states). The M1 Rifle fires 30-06 ammunition (much more powerful) and typically uses heavier bullets. Often used for hunting deer and even larger animals such as moose, elk, bear, and occasionally used on large and dangerous game in Africa.

As an interesting sidelight, the M1 Carbine was initially designed by "Carbine" Williams, while he was in prison. He did the work first clandestinely, and later, when he was discovered, with the knowledge of the prison warden. He was pardoned in part so he could continue development of the weapon, which had an unconventional action design. --Anon

Incorrect the story of David "Carbine" Williams was created of whole cloth by Hollywood. The short stroke gas piston he patented was used in the design of the M1 Carbine and he worked on the project at Winchester (along with several other noted Ordnance members) not in prison.--Tweak

This is a continuation of the discussion from the Ruger Police Carbine talk page:

Well I love the analogy between a vehicle gun and a mounted cavalry gun, it's almost lyrical. But the Wikipedia entry for carbine says that firearms chambered for pistol rounds are just shoulder-fired pistols, or something like that. Do we need to change that entry, or this one, to make the two consistent? RPellessier | (Talk) 07:33, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking of doing just that. With the shortening of modern rifles down to what was formerly considered carbine sized, there's not much room between "normal" barrel lengths of 20" or so and the 16" minimum legal length (in the US). The definitive carbine for the 2nd half of the 20th century is probably the M1 Carbine, which fires what is basically a small bore, high velocity magnum pistol round. Even in the late 19th century the definition of the carbine began to change. The Winchester lever action rifles came in 20" and longer barrels in traditional rifle calibers, and also in shorter barrels, down to 16", in revolver cartridges such as .44-40 and .45 Colt. These short, pistol caliber lever actions are probably the truest ancestor of the Ruger Carbine, and in a sense they were cavalry weapons as well; the traditional cowboy or sheriff would carry a revolver on his belt, and a lever action rifle in the same caliber in a scabbard on his saddle. I think it's the aspect of portability that really defines the carbine now; a barrel between 16" and 18", a weight of 7 lbs. or less (without optics), and a simple, practical design. Of course, there is a wide range of different guns that fit this; hit www.ruger.com and compare and contrast the Ruger M77 Compact, the Mini-14, the standard 10/22, the Deerfield, and the Carbine. The first two are available in full power rifle cartridges (although not magnum rounds, as they would suffer significantly from the 16" and 18" barrels); the 10/22 in .22 LR, the Deerfield in .44 Magnum, and the Carbine in 9mm and .40 S&W. I would split those into three types of carbine; the full power ones as just "carbine", the 10/22 as a "rimfire carbine", and the Carbine and Deerflield as "pistol caliber carbines".
The pistol caliber carbine is distinct from an SMG in that SMGs generally have barrels under 10" and a folding stock and are designed for full auto fire (being a sub-machine gun). The original Thompson Annihilator, ancestor of all SMGs, had a 10" barrel, no buttstock, and vertical foregrip and pistol grip. Later versions were equipped with detatchable stocks, but the barrels remained at 10" for police and military use, the 16" barrel semi-automatic version was later added to make it saleable to civilians after the 1934 machine gun restrictions were inacted. Pistol caliber carbines often have fixed stocks, have longer barrels, and are often not selective fire (the M2 select fire variant of the M1 Carbine being a notable exception). Pistol caliber carbines have a rather odd niche; they are often not suited for hunting, as most pistol rounds are marginal at best (and therefore usually illegal) as hunting rounds; the .44 Magnum carbines being the big exception--it's an ideal short range deer gun. The pistol caliber carbines like the Ruger Carbine are great defensive weapons however; they are short enough to handle indoors, legal in many areas where pistols are not, they have very little recoil, and, unlike a handgun, they're easy to shoot accurately. The pistol rounds are also far more suited for urban areas than a rifle round like the 5.56 NATO, since the slow, fat pistol bullet will drop to the ground far sooner when fired level, and is much less likely to penetrate walls and cause unintentional injury.
I think the carbine entry should be expanded to emphasize compactness and portability as the defining characteristics, and then mention the different caliber classes and uses of modern carbines. scot 17:52, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)


Another possible addtion is the concept of the "ultra carbine". In the airgun world, where NFA rules on stocks and barrel lengths do not apply, there is a trend towards rifles that have super-short barrels, or pistols that are converted into short barrelled rifles. These generally have barrels in the range of 8 to 15 inches, and since they are almost all single shot, they are definately not SMGs. See http://www.davegstocks.com/showroom.cfm for a few examples. I might just have to see about rigging something like that for my Crosman 2240 pistol... scot 19:41, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Cleanup

I've removed a lot of the garbage that was us-centric (at least in regards to the non-use or illegality of said weapons), and cleaned up formatting substantially. I have therefore removed the {{cleanup}} designation. There are some instances where additional wiki links could be added, and I will add an image for an M4 Carbine. Because of the assault weapons ban sunset, the strong language involving illegality is not pertinent. Additionally, to mention that snipers are now using .50 bmg's and longer barrels is just insipid. You don't snipe with a carbine, you snipe with a long range, heavy, long barreled rifle, like the SASR or DMR variants. Your friendly local gun nut, Avriette July 9, 2005 17:11 (UTC)

[edit] Sterling

The Sterling wasn't called a carbine. It was called a machine carbine, which is or was the British word for an SMG AllStarZ 00:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

"Another class of carbine is a semi-automatic version of a submachine gun"...so wouldn't "machine carbine" minus the "machine" part leave you with just a "carbine"? Granted, these would have been illegal in the UK for quite a while, but they are available on and off in parts of the US, depending on various state and federal legislation, and assorted executive orders banning import. scot 02:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why Carbine?

I was hoping to find out why a carbine is called a carbine. there appears to be plenty of information as to what a carbine is but none on the origin of the name, in fact to quote the Encyclopedia Britannica :

'The word, the source of which is obscure, seems to have originated in the late or mid-16th century.'

Can anyone shed any light on this apparently unknown term? Or perhaps update the article for other people trying to work this one out?

Tim.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=carbine and http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/Ca/Carbine.html have divergent etymologies, and http://personal.monm.edu/JRIVERS/carabiner.htm traces the term forward to "carabiner". scot 22:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Browning Hi-Power a carbine?

I don't see how the Browning Hi-Power is a carbine, so I'm commenting out the picture for now. --RavenStorm 01:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It's pointed out in the text. Many Hi-Powers were, like that one, made with provisions for a detachable stock, which would turn it into a carbine--ditto for the Luger, Mauser Broomhandle, and a number of other military pistols. Even a number of revovlers dating back to the black powder era were available with detatchable stocks. If you attach a stock, it's no longer a pistol, and it's shorter than a rifle, so it becomes a carbine. scot 14:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Alright, makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up. --RavenStorm 16:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Not a problem--I also altered the caption for the image to make it a bit more clear why a picture of what is typically considered a pistol is in the middle of a carbine article. scot 17:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)