Talk:Capoeira

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[edit] Removed annying animated GIF that doesn't add much and is distracting when trying to read

This GIF reallz dows distract while reading. I would also suggest removing it as it is still there. I will do so hoping i am not violating any rules. -(Unsigned) User:84.172.93.172 (talk)

You're not violating rules by suggesting it. ^_^ Heck, you wouldn't be violating rules by editing the article to remove it. Be bold, and all. However, I suspect that people might object. Personally, I think the ginga one fits in nicely because it's very representative of Capoeira. The Au, maybe less so. -Fuzzy (talk) 19:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

[edit] Reference lacking citation

It was originated by Nigerian or Angolan ethnic groups where members fought with music and the winner won a partner, usually female.

First time I read about such reference, can anyone verify this? I've moved it here pending citation. Tartaruga 13:06, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Capoeira Ashanti

Capoeira Ashnti (also known as Asante) is derived from the Ashanti tribe of Western Africa and Maroons in Jamaica.In 1966 the Jamaican Maroons defeated the British using capoeira adapted to suit jungle and mountainous conditions.Capoeira Ashanti relys on swift movement and constant awarness, the use of knives or samll swords was also adapted. For the Ashanti tribe in Afirca and the Maroons in Jamiaca, Capoeira Ashanti has become a way of life.

Anyone to comment about the variant mentioned above? I've never heard of this variant before and would like to get a valid cite before including it in the main article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.50.250.29 (talk) 09:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Proposed pruning of Music and The game sub-sections

Move to it's own pages? The Capoeira music article needs to be improved, suggest taking the bulk of the content from the capoeira article to the music article and leaving behind a summary. Will add summary for the Maculele and Puxada de rede subsections soon. Tartaruga 16:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

This is going to be a REALLY UNPOPULAR OPINION, but I don't think Brazilian Capoeira is a MARTIAL ART!!!! This needs to be addressed more thoroughly. IT IS A SPORT and a GAME, loosely based on martial art. As long as the basis for the game is not attacking or subduing, but only athletic feats, and dance-like moves, it is not a Martial Art. It may be based on an Angolan Martial Art, and it may have secretly been used to practice this Angolan Martial Art. While many Asian Martial Arts have also become sports and are competitive, Its very clear these are primarily geared towards combat- subduing, injuring or even killing an opponent. The issues of "Capoeira Masters" and "Schools" is very much related to the fact that these are more like games and less like combat. I also think this is one of the reasons for the Gracies success- Capoeira was not a combat oriented martial art in Brazil, and the Gracies filled this void. If anyone has information contradicting this view, especially primary info translated from Portuguese, it should be put right in the beginning, to make clear. Cuvtixo 23:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I beg to disagree. Capoeira was, apparently, a martial art, but it had to be disguised as a "dance" to become tolerated. Read any thing about Brazilian history in the late XIX and early XX century and you will see that it was feared. Nobody fears a dance, for instance, do you fear someone may use tango against you? jggouvea 01:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkBEQ3G42Z8">Fight Muzenza</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q3Z7UQZnBY&NR=1">Capoeira de Contato</a>

<a href="http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56294">Bullshido: "Full" Contact Capoeira</a>

What you are looking at here is a version of Capoeira which is being developed/rediscovered that contains actual attacks (mostly kicks and a few palm strikes and throws). The main idea here is that if you are not performing a Ginga (dance) while you are fighting it is not Capoeira and thus the fight is broken up and restarted. Perhaps not the most efficient or effective of combat systems, but it is fighting.

[edit] Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is NOT a capoerista

  • One of the challengers in Bruce Lee's Game of Death (1978) was NOT a Capoeirist. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was a JEET KUNE DO user. I don't know how the hell someone could make a mistake this huge...gawddamn, at least watch the movie before they post information.

Anyways, I changed it in the section.

[edit] Mannheim

Unless I'm mistaken, the inclusion of individual school web pages in the section titled "International School Directories" has been decided against. However, someone continually has been re-adding Capoeira Mannheim to the list. I'm wondering if this is simply an issue of misunderstanding due to language, seeing as the linked page is entirely in German. The persistance of the person adding the site has become taxing, they literally check the page every 10 hours and re-edit it. 1) Am I correct in that the page does not fit the requirements for the ISD link area, and 2) could we do something about this person's constant reposting if I am? Thank you.

Macaco 15:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been rv-ing Mannheim's additions as well. I've attempted to contact them with the email link given on their site to perhaps reason with them on their actions and intentions but have yet to receive their reply. Tartaruga 14:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The spamming continues... Tartaruga 16:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music

I added a section on the ladainhas, chulas and crridos. Let me know what you think. -Asbestos 26 Oct 04

I'm going to create a page on Capoeira music, with the words to many ladainhas, chulas and corridos. Wikipedia has a policy against song lyrics, but I believe that this only applies to comercial songs (especially as they do have the words to national anthems and hymns). Let me know if you think that this is a good idea, and please feel free to contribute.

New Page: Capoeira songs

--Asbestos 11:53, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Another New Page: Capoeira toques --Coalhada


[edit] Internationally renowned mestres

I'm worried that this listing is going to become yet another School Listing fiasco. What's the criteria for an "internationally renowned mestre"? I've no qualms about listing mestre who've genuinely promoted the art and further developed it. I'm also agreeable to living Mestres who're still continuing their work.

But I wish to know where do we draw the line? Do we list mestres based on the number of students they have (and how do we verify this)? Years of experience? Number of DVDs and TV appearances? I don't wish to offend anyone by inadvertibly removing a link to an obscure contemporary mestre but I don't want to see the wholesale inclusion of anyone who calls themselves a mestre either.

Furthermore I also feel that a list must include the corresponding article to exist first, prior to inclusion. Otherwise, it's kinda pointless. Tartaruga 04:33, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, though I'm not entirely sure what the solution should be. If we do create some standards of notability, I'd suggest that those who don't make the standard are listed in another article, say Capoeira mestres or something, and Mestre so-and-so can redirect to the metre's paragraph in that article. I'm not sure how to measure notability, though, since web presence would hardly be a fair ranking.
On a slightly different topic, I'm about to start creating an Angola lineage tree at Template:Capoeira Angola lineage. Any help would be appreciated. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 17:04, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Hey, that Capoeira Angola Lineage template is cool. BUT i'm worried about how we can verify the accuracy when people start adding themselves to the tree... Tartaruga 01:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, first, I din't think that anyone but Mestres should be on the trees, so hopefully we won't get random people adding themselves. Also, the trees probably shouldn't get too deep — I'm not sure we should be including anyone more than , say, four deep from the top.
For the Anoleiros under Pastinha I don't think accuracy is too difficult: Angola Mestres take this seriously, and I don't think anyone would claim to have been made a mestre under Joao Pequeno, say, unless they really were. I was, however, looking online for an official family tree — I saw one up on the wall at Cobrinha's school a while ago, but don't know if there is an online version.
I don't know much about other Angoleiros who come from a different lineage than Pastinha — I know Mestre Nô and many others have different lineages. If we have articles on mestres with interesting lineages and someone wants to make one, that's fine.
Regional I know very little about. If any of the mestres that we have articles on were taught by Mestre Bimba, then perhaps we should create a tree for that. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 15:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I've changed my mind, and have now created an article at Capoeira lineage under Mestre Pastinha. More in the section at the bottom... — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 16:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Why not rank Mestres based on their work. Mestre Jelon Vieira has multiple venues where he has demonstrated his skills, his teaching effectiveness, and his mastery of both capoeira but also Brazilian culture. Does this merit inclusion Duskshade

[edit] About External Links

I've often spent time removing links to schools--some really good sites (it's getting to be quite often as more and more people are discovering the Capoeira article), some really bad (a matter of opinion, but I removed them all). And as you can see, Notable Mestres are getting long, and there's even a stub for a Capoeira association linked to See Also.

I propose that all modern mestres, capoeira schools, capoeira associations and groups refrain from adding their link or cross reference to their "external link" stub (with no intention of wikifying). Instead, have those articles be categorized, and the Capoeira article will link to the respective categories. Suggestions for the categories are Capoeira Mestres and Capoeira Schools and Associations (BUT really, you ought to get your group's site listed on the DMOZ directory instead of on the Wikipedia). Tartaruga 01:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I concur that the list has become overly long and non-encyclopedic, as well as NPOV to a degree. Unfortunately, the vaste majority of writers interested in contributing to this article are capoeristas with their own loyalties to their Mestre, so you can't count on NPOV. Any arguments over who qualifies as "notable" are futile. The list is uneccessary in any case, as the category "Capoeira Mestres" is sufficient. I'd like to call for agreement to remove all Mestres but Bimba and Pastinha from the list.--Spyrral 23:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Done. All mestres with articles have been categorized, and the list deleted. I added the link to the Mastre database there, so that people can see that such a list exists elsewhere and there doesn't need to be one here. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 19:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lineage

Since I haven't seen any good resources on the web showing capoeira lineages, I thought it would be useful to start creating articles here. I've just created Capoeira lineage under Mestre Pastinha, although I'd like a little help with it:

  • Getting the tree as complete as possible (since it's now its own article, it can be pretty large)
  • Editing and adding to the article, to make it as encyclopedic as possible and not just a database, which might get deleted.

If anyone else wants to create lineage of Bimba, that would be fine too.

Now instead of having the entire lineage on each mestre's article, I thought we could just show the direct lineage of the mestre, i.e. in a straight line, and link back to the relevent main lineage.

As for articles on each individual mestre, I'm still unsure about that. Here's what I propose: If an article can be written on a mestre that is substantial in length (beyond "He's the mestre at my school, and this is what my school is like:..."), then that should imply that there is a lot of information out there on the mestre ands therefore notability(?). Otherwise, for mestres with only a few lines written about them, consign them all to the articles Capoeira Angola mestres and Capoeira Regional mestres, or whatever.

Thoughts/Comments? — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 16:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I can already see it now, a huge long list of names under the header "Notable Angola Mestres" with external links to their respective schools. I'm surprised the Kung Fu and Yoga articles don't have this problem (List of famous Kung Fu Masters anyone?). Tartaruga 01:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capoeira in Anglo-American popular culture?

Why did Capoeira in popular culture get changed to Capoeira in Anglo-American popular culture? I see that most of the info in that section was "Anglo-American", but the title seems needlessly specific and exclusionary — if there's interesting stuff to be said about capoeira films or games in any other cultures I don't see why it shouldn't be there. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 04:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

  • People seem to forget that it's not only anglo-Americans who use Wikipedia. KEJ 08:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See Also Kalarippayattu?

I don't see the relevance. Can we remove this reference? Tartaruga 11:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Personally, I think the link to the ICAF/FICA haedquarters should stay (www.capoeira-angola.org), as it's the most centralized organization in Capoeira Angola (and has plenty of info). However, if you don't think it belongs there, maybe we need a section for these kinds of links. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 13:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I went over the ICAF site the few times I saw it linked in (Sorry, if it was you who kept adding it back in--I was the one who kept removing it). I do agree with what you said above. But I also feel that there were many external link sites which had plenty of capoeira info/media--but was excluded for being more "commercial". I'm for the stand that as long as a site has ANY leanings towards "marketing" products or classes for monetary gains whether for non-profit (now that's a conundrum) or for profit, it should be excluded, no matter how well intended the site is (Do we link a commercial Capoeira school's site which has lots of free info, free classes, videos and free downloads of poster sized pictures of legendary Mestres? I digress). General Information has to be that, "General" NPOV information. I suppose we can have a separate page listing so called "Non Profit Capoeira Organizations/Federations" but I believe it will become a large unmanageable list-o-links which again, really should belong in a DMOZ category. Tartaruga 01:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
For the record, the wu-wien.ac.at external link is the only link item which also has a text link to classes organised by the author's group (at the bottom of the page but it also links to other groups), but the information that site provides is likely to be the most comprehensive listing of Capoeira moves + pictures (and also one of the earliest pages on Capoeira I've ever known) and thus I felt it's "General" nature far outweighed it's "marketing" goals. Tartaruga 01:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capoeira in popular culture

This section is getting huge. Do we need to have every computer game in which some character made a move that looked like capoeira? Every movie where someone does a flip? Imagine what the karate article would look like if every movie with a karate scene in it was listed.

I suggest that we prune down the section considerably, including only a few noteworthy examples of games and movies in which capoeira is featured, and note that it is become quite widespread. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 16:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I think only things that "broke new ground" should be listed. For example, the first couple of appearances of Capoeira in videogames could be listed, but omit the rest, unless they are particularly noteworthy. The first artist to use a berimbau in a record, etc; and then these could mention the first time(s) these happened in Brazil and then the first time(s) abroad; etc. --Cotoco 16:48, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Time to either prune off this section or branch off a separate article. I'm all for branching--but I don't see other martial art articles setting this sort of precedence? (Kung Fu in popular culture?) Tartaruga 14:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
A strong second to the call to branch this off or get it down to a single paragraph... --Focomoso 10:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Done! Focomoso 11:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I was gonna take a crack at it, but you beat me to it! Thanks! Tartaruga 16:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone answer as to whether the fighting in The Mighty Quinn was Capoeira? --Mr kitehead 03:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

-I made a point of removing the erroneous info, such as suggesting that "Zum Zum Zum" originated in Only The Strong and that Kareem Abdul Jabar was a Capoeirista. --Toquinha 17:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

About "Zum Zum Zum" in the Mazda ads, it should be noted that the version they used in the ad (at least the original version, as they started mutating it over time) is indeed (if I remember correctly) based on the song as present in the soundtrack for Only the Strong. Note to the bass line, for example. I don't know if the information should be there or not, but it's apparently not erroneous. --Cotoco 04:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of "Regional"

...Regional (pronounced 'heh-jeeh-oh-nahl' or '-now')...

I think that's totally worthless. The word "regional" has the same meaning in portuguese and in english, so there's no point in describing the portuguese pronounce. The only thing is that to brazilian ears the english pronounce might sound a bit like "original capoeira", but that doesn't make it wrong. That's still not a issue of needing to explain the pronounce as if was a japanese or chinese term, with no equal/equivalent word, I think. --Extremophile 00:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Hmm... It is pronounced quite differently in Brazilian Portuguese than in English (or other languages that also have 'regional' in their vocabularies), so I think that a clarification of the Brazilian Portuguese pronuncuation is okay (it's of course pronounced differently in European Portuguese), but I'd prefer an IPA transcription rather than an orthographically based one like the one that's presently provided in the text. It's true that the word means almost the same thing in Portuguese and English, but that doesn't - in my opinion - have anything to do with it's pronuncuation. KEJ 20:20, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Even though the word exists with the same spelling and meaning in English, when referring to Capoeira Regional it is usually pronounced as in Portuguese, even by English-speaking Capoeiristas. --Cotoco 20:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
And capoeiras that speak other languages than English and Portuguese ;-) KEJ 08:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I had expanded on it to make it somewhat more clear but I also think the bit about pronunciation is pretty unnecessary. First I think guides to (Brasilian) Portuguese translation don't really have a place in this lemma. Second, any attempt to put such guidance here (be it in IPA or not) will be hopelessly incomplete because pronunciation throughout the Portuguese speaking world varies wildly. Illustir 17:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
If I may interject here, it seems to me that people use wikipedia to um...look up things they have heard about but don't know what are. If I were some guy on the street and heard somebody mention that he did capoeira regional without seeing it written, I would assume the word was spelled with an H in the absence of any experience with the Portuguese language, and would be grateful for wikipedia's assistance in correcting my misapprehension. MrGalt 22:38, 13 November 2006

I found it somewhat odd. Akin to something like "gene" being pronounced as it is in english, in any language, rather than just using the equivalent word for the language (in portuguese it would be equally "gene", but pronounced differently). But perhaps it's just some martial art's "fetishism", like karate having all those japanese terms rather than translations for things like "punch", "kick", etc. --Extremophile 05:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should "Capoeira" be capitalized?

The words 'Capoeira', 'Mestre' and names of Capoeira moves should be capitalized? Tartaruga 03:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

As I undertand it, no, these are common nouns and should not be capitalised, in the same way that you don't capitalise 'football' or 'scissor kick'. An exception is that 'mestre' should be capitalised when used as a person's title, e.g., Mestre Bimba. Deditos 09:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC).
Did my best to convert 'Capoeira' to 'capoeira' (including 'Capoeira Angola' to 'capoeira Angola' and 'Capoeira Regional' to 'capoeira regional') without changing proper names of schools and organizations. Sorry if I missed any. Focomoso 10:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Why should, in this context, "Angola" be capitalized, but not "regional"? I assume you decided that based on the fact that Angola is a country's name. But, in this case, we're not talking about the country, it's simply the name of the style. Therefore, I am of the opinion that both "angola" and "regional" should be treated the same way; either both or neither should be capitalized. --Cotoco 06:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
This is common English usage. When a compound common noun, which should not be capitalized, includes a proper noun or adjective, the proper word is capitalized. Look at American football vs. gridiron football. Or English football vs. association football. Focomoso 23:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cordão de Ouro

what happen to the info regarding cordão de ouro? It doesn't even have its own article. I suggest putting at least some info on the page, as i believe its quite popular in Europe.

Someone will still have to take the initiative to write up that article. We're not paid writers you know? Tartaruga 14:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Performance capoeira

Just wondering whether anyone has given any thought to adding something to this page about performance capoeira, by which I mean capoeira that is performed on stage for the benefit of impressing an audience, for example, with corporate floor shows that specialize in Brazilian forms. Like they might have a samba number, an axe, a lambada, and performance capoeira. Does anyone know enough about this to write about it? Mona-Lynn 22:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC) True, but then who took away the section?


[edit] Styles of Capoeira

I think this section needs a rewrite. A couple of points:

  • While some groups/mestres identify clearly as Angola or regional, there are many who do not come from either Bimba or Pastinha's linage and fall somewhere in the middle. I think the great overlap between groups/mestres should be addressed here before the two major styles are defined.
  • I don't understand the line about Angolaros mimicking regional for performances. If it's supposed to mean they make fun of them, that should be stated clearly (I think that's what it means).
  • The line about Angoleiros mimicking regional for performances probably refers to the fact that some angola groups incorporate acrobatics, solos, etc. into performances to make them more exciting for a crowd to watch.


  • In the Capoeira Regional section, "Regional is a ... more martially-oriented game." Really? I don't think we can say one way or the other which is more martial, Angola or regional. I recommend removing this. However, something about regional being a more systematic way of teaching capoeira might be appropriate here.
  • The whole thing could use a good copy edit.

I volunteer to do the rewrite, but want a little feed back first. Focomoso 23:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

It is probably worth some clarification that the pronouncement of capoeira angola was made in direct opposition to Bimba's creation of capoeira regional. Mestre Pastinha, while the most (currently) well known mestre of capoeira angola from Bimba's time, does not represent the only lineage of capoeira angola. So, while (from a strict lineage perspective) anything that identifies as capoeira regional should descend from M. Bimba, a Capoeira Angola lineage does not have to descend from M. Pastinha. Cegeddin (talk) 16:48, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Capoeira Mestres needs a clean up

Making note of it here since this is read more often. The Category of Capoeira Mestres page contains an external link, possibly a double post and a rather long description for Master Marcello. This seems incorrect but someone else should check it out. Porco-esphino 06:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Its a category not an article - I just deleted all the text. Within the Category there is an article which gives the overview - this is how it should be.Peter Rehse 08:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Fail

  • Poorly written
  • unreferenced
  • There are 'paragraphs' containing six words. A paragraph is roughly 3-4 sentences.
  • It's poorly written and choppy in almost every section.
  • An article this size needs 2-3 paragraphs in the lead
  • White spaces between sections

Two references used throughout the whole article and they aren't even formatted properly. M3tal H3ad 04:52, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abada capoeira snipe in history section

I'm showing the following in the history section: "Abada capoeira is the best team of all Brazil, however, they lack diligence since they tend to smoke lots of marijuana and use steroids to outstengthen their opponents." This doesn't seem neutral, but I can't find the text to delete it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.231.140.218 (talk) 22:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Contradictions as to origins

The first sentence says its "Angolan", the next sentence mentions Angola and Nigeria, the history sections mentions Angola, Congo and Mozambique but not Nigeria. Maybe "south-central Africa" can capture all of them? AxelBoldt 21:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be better to state that Capoeira evolved out of the culture brought by the African slaves brought to Brazil. It must be noted that nothing similar to Capoeira appears to exist in Africa (its introduction there being recent and its popularity mostly due to the locals considering it "the African-originated martial art"). This article is badly in need of research. jggouvea 23:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


Sorry Jggouvea -- There are many martial arts in Africa today that are related to Capoeira.

Take a look at some of them http://www.myspace.com/africanmartialarts

There are the facts - there is no more need for 'subconscious' negation just becasue capoiera was invented by Africans.

In fact, about 50 martial arts found in the Americas and Africa both are African in origins.

I have listed about fifty such martial arts on the website above.

Nubianem http://sexyloveromancepoems.blogstream.com

Excuse me for hurting your feelings ;-). I based my comment on these sourcs (sorry for the language, because Capoeira is very recent in other countries, most of the few scholarship about it is in Portuguese):

References in English:

Notice that I did not claim that capoeira originated out of nothing. I remarked that it originated in Brazil from the culture brought by the Africans (though some authors acknowledge an important Amerindian contribution).

While capoeira seems to be related somehow to Ngolo, current researches tend to agree that capoeira incorporates elements of Ngolo (just as karate incorporates elements from kung fu).

Another important thing I remarked was that "nothing similar" exists in Africa. This does not amount to say that "nothing" exists in Africa. OK. There are many martial arts from Africa (I did not say there weren't), but until someone brings forth reference that any of them is a) has movements similar to capoeira, b) is older than it and c) includes both the rhythmic and musical elements; we must skeptically assume that any martial art from Africa is either different from capoeira or based on it.

As for the origins of African martial arts, it is not unlikely that some of them were brought "back to Africa" tby the Brazilian fred slaves who returned to Angola, Benin or Congo. Unless sufficient evidence is brought forth, one can reasonably suspect some African martial arts are of Brazilian origin. About this, read this interesting article about the "agoudas", the "Brazilians" of Benin.

Some questions regarding what you mention in your site.

  • How do you know there were any martial arts in "the Aquatic Civilization of the Sahara (Zingh Empire )"
  • How do you know that such civilisation, if existed at all as "one civilisation", called itself Zingh or Zung or Ixto or mud kickers or whatever else, since they did not leave any recorded history? (Oral traditions become quite unreliable after 30,000 years)
  • While most references to this "Aquatic Civilisation" point to Afro-Centric propaganda sites, the few of them that are scholarly fail to mention that it was "one civilisation", that it had a name, or anything but speculations on its culture. This is because this(ese) civilisation(s) vanished long ago and left scant traces. Where do you get information on them? Please share your references.
  • "Knocking and Kicking is found in the SOUTHERN US, IN MISSISSIPPI AND LOUISIANA". If "knocking and kicking" qualifies as "martial art" than anything goes.


Therefore I still hold, until proven otherwise by scholarly research, that there are people advancing an Afro-centric agenda, which includes claiming as purely "African" anything related to African diaspora. Related to this, we Brazilians assume that these people are trying to deny us our own cultural heritage by attributing it to others. jggouvea 21:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Although there were occassional cases of slavery, Europe didn`t use the slavery labour, certainly it didn`t use the labour of African slaves. I do know nothing about capoiera, but, I don`t see any contradiction in the supposition it have originated in Angola (so, in *Angola*, and not in "Africa") and the fact there is no capoiera outside Brazil. While holding much of the African slave trade to Americas, it seems to me fairly reasonable that Portugese traders shipped the slaves from their own colonies in Africa, speaking the Portugese, only to their own American colony - Brazil.Kornjaca (talk) 08:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Create list of Capoeira techniques

Hello, I had an idea that I would like propose to the editors that help to maintain this article and its category. I noticed a number of short article stubs about Capoeira techniques that could be organized into a single list ("List of Capoeira techniques") that could easily be expanded with other techniques that are not currently on Wikipedia. The stubs I saw that could be merged together were, Armada (Capoeira), Aú, Aú batido, Cabeçada, Ginga (capoeira), Macaco, Martelo, Meia-lua de compasso, and Raiz. Other articles can also be linked and hopefully have their roots to Capoeira explained better, like Corkscrew (trick) and Double Leg (trick). Hopefully, once the information is combined into a single article, editors will be able to expand on the information more easily than if they were separate. Only a few techniques are briefly mentioned in the main article, and I think it would compliment the main article nicely. Anyway, just a thought to help get the information organized in an appropriate manner. What does everyone else think? (Guyinblack25 21:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC))

I think it is a good idea. Since you came up with the idea, you should get it started, I'm sure many poepl will contribute with constructive edits. Davelapo555 18:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I like the idea, so long as each move has space for a gif and description. You get the template happening and I'll help out :) Porco-esphino 03:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The artilces listed above have been merged into List of capoeira techniques and each article has been switched to a redirect page to their place in the list. I also added div tags with " style="clear: both" " in them so that the images there will all fit properly. The only one I left off was a link to the Corkscrew (trick) because I don't know the capoeira name for it. I'll also leave the inclusion of it in the main Capoeira article up to you guys since I'm sure y'all know the article better than I do. (Guyinblack25 14:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

Isnt it now a sport? I believed it to be Brazils oficial sport. It had a tournament set up, specifically for this porpose. It may be other things, but if it officaly a sport, I think that should be mentioned, as well as the fact that it incorparates dance, martial arts, etc.86.40.240.104 (talk) 01:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Martial art?

Given the definition of martial art that we're using... Capoeira doesn't seem to qualify. At the very least, Capoeira is certainly not PRIMARILY a martial art. I checked the "Definitions" section of the archive for this talk page and didn't find anything there to contradict this. Does anyone object to me removing the characterization from the lead-in sentence and dealing with the issue of it's relative martial merits further down in the article? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 23:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a problem. The definition is: "Martial arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat. Martial arts are studied for various reasons including combat skills, fitness, self-defense, sport, self-cultivation (meditation), mental discipline, character development and building self-confidence". (Part of) Capoeira is a tradition of training for combat that is studied for various reasons including well most of the reasons they list. This qualifies nicely. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Porco-esphino (talk • contribs) 03:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Well, simply put... martial arts are "about" combat. Capoeira does not seem to be. Do I have that wrong? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 06:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not you have that wrong is immaterial. What you need to do is find reputable primary sources that make the case that capoeira is not a martial art, cite them and include them here. I have seen capoeira called many things, martial art is always among them. Focomoso 22:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

You're missing my point... based on OUR articles on Capoeira and Martial Arts, it doesn't seem to work. There's no need for me to go out and cite additional sources, when the sources already in the article seem to bear out what I'm saying. Now, like I said, I may be looking at things the wrong way... but our article on Capoeira does not describe a Martial Art in the sense that our article on Martial Arts defines them. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 18:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think your issue is more with the use of "combat" in the martial arts definition. Perhaps you should inquire there. Focomoso 22:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps.. but as it stands, if combat is key in the definition of martial art, does Capoeira still qualify? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 16:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia's definition of combat: "The term 'combat' typically refers to armed conflict between military forces in warfare, whereas the more general term 'fighting' can refer to any violent conflict, including boxing and wrestling matches." Very few martial arts meet that definition, perhaps none. Capoeira clearly meets the de facto definition of martial art. And again, you're free to cite sources that argue otherwise. Focomoso 08:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Having witnessed a real life brawl between a judo and capoeira instructor, and received numerous combat-oriented body blows during sparring sessions, I can attest that there's no doubt in my personal experience that capoeira is combat and martial oriented. Tartaruga 03:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, the article needs to be altered then. We keep calling it the "game" (martial arts aren't games), and it says that it needs music and doesn't emphasize touching your opponent. All of that points to "game" or "hobby" and not "martial art". --Dante Alighieri | Talk 08:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
"Game" is a literal translation from Portuguese, but the word when used in this context does not have the same connotation in Portuguese as it does in English. It seems to be a misnomer in English, but it is very difficult to find the right word (fight? bout? joust? spar? ...); hence the tendency to just use "game." Mona-Lynn 11:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
If the word doesn't mean the same thing in Portuguese as in English, we probably shouldn't be using it. If there's problems finding an "appropriate" translation, don't translate it. Just use the Portuguese word and explain once what it means. As it stands, someone reading the Capoeira article is inclined to get a warped view of the situation. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 17:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Only trouble is, much of the English-speaking capoeira world does use it. Ah - such is life. Mona-Lynn 20:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to make clear what is being discussed here, Portuguese words for "game", "play" and "rhythm" do not map respectively to their English counterparts. It is a well-known fact among those with the slightest notion of Portuguese that "play" can be translated as "brincar" (like a child), "jogar" (cards) or "tocar" (an instrument) and both such words have other secondary meanings ("brincar" meaning to poke fun at someone and "tocar" meaning to touch). I mention these words because "brincar" and "tocar" are both used for capoeira (for, respectively, the fight and the music). Regarding the "game", the Portuguese word being translated here is "jogo" (the noun that corresponds to "jogar"). But jogo does not mean "game" only. It is also how the Brazilians call the way someone moves their legs. "Jogo", then, means "sway" or "flexibility". To have a good "jogo de pernas" (leg's "game") is to be swift, light-footed and well-trained in leg movement. So, when Brazilians say capoeira is "jogo" they are not at all meaning that it is a "game", "jogo de capoeira" is the typical leg flexibility (and movement) attained or kept by those who practice capoeira while "jogar capoeira" means to exercise such movement. Yes, Portuguese sounds difficult. But it isn't more difficult than most other languages, you can learn it if you study it the right way ;-) jggouvea 04:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
"martial arts aren't games" according to whom? Cite some sources. Clearly in the current wikipedia definition of martial art, games are included. Focomoso 22:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
From our article on Martial art: "Martial arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat. Martial arts are studied for various reasons including combat skills, fitness, self-defense, sport, self-cultivation (meditation), mental discipline, character development and building self-confidence. A practitioner of martial arts is referred to as a martial artist."
Nothing about games there. Our article on games indicates that they're usually undertaken for enjoyment... not for combat. Is Judo a game? What about gymnastics? I don't know why you keep asking that I site (sic) sources when I keep indicating that the point is that Wikipedia is not being INTERNALLY consistent. How about YOU cite a section of Wikipedia that indicates that games are martial arts? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 16:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Internal consistency is not one of wikipidia's core content policies. Verifiability is; verifiability based on "reliable published sources" (which do not include other wikipedia articles). Every published source I've seen on capoeira refers to it as a martial art, including many of the books in the further reading section. I believe the consensus among the editors here is that the burden of evidence for calling capoeira a martial art has been met. If you can find sources that refute this, please cite them (thanks for catching my typo) and you may change some minds. That's the way wikipedia works. Focomoso 08:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Look, if no one else sees ANY problem that some relevant articles don't seem to agree with each other (combat, martial art, Capoeira), I suppose there's nothing I can do to convince you. If you're happy that all three go about their own "verifiable" existences with no cross-pollination in an effort to keep Wikipedia internally consistent... well, I guess that's it. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 17:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved comment from article

I've moved another article about capoeira which was placed as a comment to Talk:Capoeira/More info. Visor 23:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Axé

Has there been thought of adding the concept axé to the article? This is the equivalent of chi, qi in eastern martial art. If not and if desired I will whip up some sources and add it :). Teardrop onthefire 14:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm curious what sources you have for this. It's a stretch. And equivalent is certainly too strong a word. There isn't even consensus that Chinese qi is equivalent to Japanese ki and they're based on the same character. Focomoso 08:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hard of Soft?

Is Capoeira more hard or soft?--Hhielscher 22:17, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Hard and Soft refers mostly to Asian Martial Arts. -unsigned comment
Based on my understanding of hard and soft, it's closer to soft. The techniques are based more on momentum than on "snapping" the technique. But I will be first to admit that I'm not entirely clear on the whole "hard and soft" distinction and how it works once you start doing the movements quickly. -Fuzzy (talk) 12:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] wasn't japanese?

heard a while ago it was some japanese martial arts masters in brazil (there is a ancient japanese minority there) that taught the slaves how to fight, hence the similiraty (the circle could be reminiscent of the sumo practice). is it legend or truth?? Paris By Night 03:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The japanese only arrived in brazil in the early twentieth century.

I've never read any reputable source that poses this seriously. Perhaps you're thinking of the Japanese connection to Brazilian Ju-jutsu? Focomoso 08:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Atual

I've read that it's called atual and not 'contemporeano', this coming from a book i'm reading: J. Lowell Lewis, 'Ring of Liberation: Deceptive Discourse in Brazilian Capoeira'(from 1992)Domsta333 14:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think a distinction between Atual and Contemporânea is a good idea, but I'm not the one to write it. Are you volunteering Domsta333? Focomoso 08:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] what is it

what is caprio —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.124.61 (talk) 14:17, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

- AKBAN-wiki, a community based video Martial arts encyclopedia

As far as I know this is the only logically arranged video source of martial arts techniques. It is not affiliated with any particular Capoeira school and is actually open to revisions. Gingihan —Preceding comment was added at 04:38, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The "whitening" section makes no sense

I don't get it. My text interpretation is really bad, or is it really suggesting that the assimilation of capoeira by white people has some sort of obscure racist underlying meaning? A sort of white conspiracy to take it away from black people or something? --Extremophile 05:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Nope, it doesn't quite make sense to me either. My reading of it is that Pookster87 is saying that in the 1800s white Brazilians embraced rather than rejected capoeira to help deflect accusations of racism made by Europeans. I can't be sure though. Without sources it probably shouldn't be in the article. Deditos 09:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC).

This article is a translation? Where can I see the original? futurebird 22:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Break dancing

Did this art form play any roll in the creation of break-dancing in the South Bronx? I've always wondered this, the two share quite a few elements. futurebird 22:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I found a source:

http://www.wiretapmag.org/stories/87/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Futurebird (talk • contribs) 22:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)