Wikipedia talk:Canadian wikipedians' notice board/Cities

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[edit] Surnames and disambiguation pages

To elaborate on a few comments I've seen on the project page, it's standard practice to disambiguate between placenames and people who have the same surname at the main title (eg - Thorold), of course with the exception that one of those people or places is substantially better known (eg - London vs Jack London). In the case of given names, these are almost always secondary in nature for that title/meaning, so they should be of no consideration when determining how a disambiguation page should be titled.

To use the example of Thorold, Anthony Wilson Thorold, Thorold's deer and Thorold, Ontario should be used to determine whether:

  • Thorold is the place, and Thorold (disambiguation) is the dab
  • Thorold redirects to Anthony Wilson Thorold, and Thorold (disambiguation) is the dab
  • Thorold redirects to Thorold's deer and Thorold (disambiguation) is the dab
  • Thorold is the dab, and Thorold, Ontario is the place

Generally, we don't redirect a main article as per the second and third entries above, except for rare cases. (I can't think of an example right now. Note that we would never move Thorold's deer to Thorold, which is why I listed it as a redirect.) Also, Thorold Gosset, Thorold Merrett, Thorold Coade would only appear on the dab page, wherever it may be.

This only leaves the issue of determining what the vague phrase "substantially better known" really means. Mindmatrix 14:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

BTW: in this example, I would choose the first entry in my list. So, rewrite Thorold as a dab, move it to Thorold (disambiguation), then move Thorold, Ontario overtop Thorold. Mindmatrix 15:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ontario cities

I've done a search for articles in Wikipedia with similar names to all Ontario cities listed in the project page. It appears that all these articles should be moved to their undisambiguated titles. In most cases, a dab page at Title (disambiguation) will be necessary (for example, Quinte West and Northumberland—Quinte West would appear on Quinte West (disambiguation)). Mindmatrix 15:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Note that we should be careful about Chatham-Kent, since we also need to deal with Chatham, Kent. Mindmatrix 15:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, that one gives me the willies. I'm uncomfortable with the notion that a hyphen vs. a comma is enough of a distinction to make a move viable. Bearcat 20:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Manitoba, Territories

I would re-create Miramichi as a disambiguation page since there are many subjects with that name (Miramichi, New Brunswick, Miramichi River, Miramichi Valley, Miramichi Bay, HMCS Miramichi and more).

I would move Edmundston to the undisambiguated title. Corner Brook too, though we have to handle HMCS Corner Brook (SSK 878) properly. Mount Pearl should be at the undisambiguated title, and we need to create Mount Pearl (disambiguation) to handle electoral districts with this name. Same deal with Portage la Prairie.

I think Yellowknife should contain the article about the city (move it overtop the redirect). Mindmatrix 15:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Note: I decided to create the Miramichi dab page. It can always be moved, if need be. Mindmatrix 16:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alberta and Saskatchewan

All articles about these cities should be moved to their undisambiguated name, except the following should be inspected closely (an extensive internet search, for example):

  • Grande Prairie - some references to US locations, libraries etc
  • Spruce Grove - some unrelated references - I haven't checked them yet
There's a Spruce Grove township in Minnesota, although it's hardly equivalent in size or significance. Bearcat 19:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Swift Current - move this, but need a dab page (eventually) since there are a number of things with this name
  • Yorkton - I get some odd hits through internet searches, but the city seems to have the overwhelming number of hits overall

On to the others... Mindmatrix 16:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm also somewhat reticent about Estevan, since that's really just "Stephen" in Spanish. Bearcat 19:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I had thought about that, but since that's just a given name I'm not as concerned (as I would be for a surname). It may be an issue if there are Spanish-named places with that name that aren't on WP yet, or if this is also used as a surname. (Or if there are people known by a single name, a la Ronaldo or Maradona.) We can cross that bridge when we come to it, as the adage says. Mindmatrix 21:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quebec

In the Quebec list, I'm leery about Sherbrooke, Valcourt, Nicolet and any saint name that doesn't have a preattached geographic disambiguator (e.g. -de-Montarville, -du-Ha!-Ha!, etc.); these all strike me as especially unlikely to be unique. And I suspect that plain saint names should really be redirected to the English spellings of the saints themselves, instead of the cities.

On the other hand, Rouyn-Noranda, Val-d'Or, Montreal West and Sorel-Tracy immediately jump out at me as fairly safe and obvious moves; these are all pretty clearly unique names. Bearcat 20:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guidelines

In some of the discussions that have been initiated so far, there's been some confusion about what the convention actually is, so I thought I'd add a note here to clarify what the general consensus points have been in successful move discussions.

  1. Cities can be moved if they (a) have a unique name, (b) are the most important use of their name. A city's international fame, or lack thereof, has a direct bearing on criterion b, but it is irrelevant if the city qualifies under criterion a.
  2. Towns, villages, neighbourhoods and other smaller settlements must have unique names. At this smaller level, importance is too subjective to be a viable criterion.
  3. A population comparison between cities of the same name may be helpful in determining primary usage, but is not conclusive in isolation. For example, Hamilton and Windsor are larger than their namesakes in other countries, but for historical or cultural reasons they are both less internationally significant than at least one of their smaller namesakes, and thus do not qualify as primary usages.
  4. Cities may also lose out as primary usage to non-city topics — for example, Regina and Prince Albert are both the largest cities of those names, but cannot be considered primary topics as both are overridden by their names' royal connotations.
  5. Institutions, electoral district or geographical features in a city which include the city's name in their own names (e.g. University of Toronto, Winnipeg Transit, Ottawa River, Vancouver Canucks, etc.) are secondary, not primary, usages, and thus are not valid reasons to put a disambiguation page at "City" rather than "City (disambiguation)". A comprehensive article about the city would include links to these topics anyway.
  6. A discussion must take place before a move can be implemented, if only so that we have documented proof that people have put adequate research into the uniqueness or importance of the topic.

Are there any other rules that people have tended to apply in these discussions which I've missed? Bearcat 06:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the third point, we should note that although they may not qualify as primary usages, the main title should be used as a disambiguation page in most cases (eg - Windsor), since there's no clearly prevalent or dominating use of the term (compare to London). The list seems comprehensive to me. Mindmatrix 13:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not clear on point two. Is it saying the the hamlet formerly called "Holman" in the Northwest Territories should be at Ulukhaktok or Ulukhaktok, Northwest Territories. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 16:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Neither. It states that should you wish to move Ulukhaktok, Northwest Territories to Ulukhaktok, then the term Ulukhaktok should be unique to that entity. It does not require the article to be at either title, though. (Technically, but with a few exceptions, all Canadian place articles should currently be at Location, Province/Territory unless move requests are made, in which case the criteria to move are defined above by Bearcat.) A quick internet search suggests that moving this article is viable, but I haven't done a thorough search to verify this. Mindmatrix 17:20, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I wan't really intending to move it, just curious as to the exact meaning of the section. I may consider proposing moving some of the NWT/Nunavut ones but I really don't think it's the best use of my time. In fact I had to create the redirect Ulukhaktok just to ask the question, so there's little problem with it being at the NWT extension. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 21:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I propose that names where a common word is used as a suffix or prefix should not be considered for an un-disambiguated title. For example places that use fort, port, river, creek, and similar word in their name. --Qyd (talk) 16:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Qyd. This is a relatively stale discussion. Subsequent to this, Bearcat got feedback on the clarified convention over on the main notice board, and the results are now at Wikipedia:Canadian Wikipedians' notice board/Style guide. You might want to raise your point on the talk page over there. Skeezix1000 (talk) 20:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, will do. --Qyd (talk) 20:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two page move questions

  1. Bamfield, British Columbia was moved (without discussion) to Bamfield by User:Thedemonhog. Is this a unique enough name that it can have the undisambiguated title?
  2. Page moves have occasionally happened without discussion, but which aren't worth moving back because they're pretty clear and unambiguous cases. Should we consider removing the requirement for discussion first in obvious cases, or is that opening too much of a POV can of worms? Bearcat (talk) 18:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  1. I am slightly leaning to supporting the move. It does appear to be a unique place name but it is also a surname.
  2. I think that discussion should be suggested for all cases. It is a good thing to get a wider perspective on all moves like these which can, and have been, debated. Although bold page moves can be undone, it is certainly easier to just get consensus for it in the first place. DoubleBlue (Talk) 21:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)