Talk:Cantillation

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Contents

[edit] Article

Other languages WikiProject Echo has identified Cantillation as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the Hebrew language Wikipedia.

[edit] Further reading

For the "Cantillation" Wikipedia page, I would suggest a book to be listed as "Further Reading": Chanting the Hebrew Bible: The Art of Cantillation. The author is Joshua R. Jacobson and the book has the ISBN 0-82-760693-1. I am sure that there are other books that may also be suitable as Further Reading, but this is one that I am familiar with. I have no link to the author or the publisher; I've just found it to be an informative book that someone interested in cantillation might find interesting. I hope that this suggestion does not constitute advertising. --joshigowub

Generally, just go to Amazon.com and search for the title and/or author. However, the ISBN is the most important thing.RickReinckens 17:28, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew naming conventions

Urgent: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) to add your opinions about this important matter. Thank you. IZAK 18:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The musical function

The old Sephardic tradition, represented amongst others by the Syrian, Egyptian, Moroccan, Italian and Spanish/Portuguese melody, is widely used in its Moroccan variety both in Israel and in the diaspora among descendants of immigrants from that country.

Um- which country? from Morocco? I'm confused. - Eric 02:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chart

None of the symbols seem to show up in the chart, yet they look fine here: ֥ ֛ ֥ ֖ ֑ ֣ ֔ ֖ ֽ Is it because of the nature of the symbols as superscript and subscript? I'll try to find a solution to this. --OneTopJob6 23:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Qur'an

According to the page for Qur'an, cantillation is also often used in recitations of that text. If that is in fact the case, I think a section needs to be added to this page to elaborate on it. QuinnHK 04:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{Torah portion}}

{{Torah portion}} does not belong on this page; it's irrelevant (and too long btw).—msh210℠ 19:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Hi msh: (1) Cantillation is the unique way the weekly Torah reading of the Parsha (Torah portion) is "read/sung" in synagogue on Mondays and Thursdays during Shacharit services, and notably in the services on Shabbat. (2) The template {{Torah portion}} is at the bottom of the Cantillation article's page, so essentially it's part of the "See also" section which is a legitimate way of connecting related and connected topics on an article. (3) If a reader finds the {{Torah portion}} to be "too intrusive" then any reader is free to click "Hide" on the top right section of the template's heading which shrinks it to an unobtrusive one liner. Finally, (4) the {{Torah portion}} is presently diligently updated weekly by User:Dauster early each Sunday so that any readers may learn more about the weekly Parsha. User:Dauster summarizes each week's Parsha and adds some interesting graphics which surely adds life and color to a page that may gain the attention of readers who don't know much about this subject and may want to learn more. Please refer all further comments and discussions to one centralized location at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Template: Torah portion Thank you. IZAK 06:50, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] trope v trop

Both spellings exist. Google returns c.300,000 hits for "trop+Hebrew" and c.100,000 for "trope+Hebrew", so it seems "trop" is the more common. Therefore, I'd suggest both should be referred to at the start of the article, but trop should be the more commonly used. --Dweller 10:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Trope (music)#Merge with Cantillation

See discussion of proposed merge of Trope (music) with Cantillation at Talk:Trope (music)#Merge with Cantillation. Hyacinth 09:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be nothing to merge; every aspect for the information from Trope (music) is contained in the article here with the exception of observation that it is possible to hear "variants in the same synagogue by different readers."

I've referred Trope (music) to Cantillations. The previous content at Trope (music) was:

[edit] from Trope (music)

In Jewish liturgy, tropes are musical phrase contours (cantillations) which are applied to the words of a sacred text during public readings. It also refers to the markings in some copies of those text to indicate the vocalization.

It is not known whether trope developed from a single form used in the ancient Temple. Following the destruction of the Temple and the dispersion of the Jews, diverse trope systems have developed regionally. As Jews continue to move about the world, it is possible to hear these variants in the same synagogue by different readers.

Different trope apply to different parts of Tanakh (the books that largely overlap with what is referred to by Christians as "the Old Testament"). Within any regional tradition, there are different trope for Torah (first five books of the Bible), versus Haftorah (Neve'im or "Prophets" (e.g Isaiah)), or various "megillot" or scrolls used on particular occasions, such as the reading of Esther at Purim.

Within Judaism, the standard accepted text of Tanakh is the Hebrew Masoretic Text. Words in the Masoretic Text contain three sections: the letters (consonants), vowel points, and trope. These cantillation marks are called te'amim in Hebrew, and the markings are standard, even though the pitch contours they represent to the reader may differ.

The trope are not random strings but follow a set and describable grammar. For more information, refer to [Jacobson, Joshua. Chanting the Hebrew Bible: the art of cantillation. 2002.] Nearly Human 17:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Integrate "Meanings" into chart?

why only the lithuanian names ? (mercha,tipcha etc) instead of the more international names for the tropes Maarikh tarkha,shophar holech etc

Looks like a good idea. All it's doing now is taking up extra space. --OneTopJob6 03:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that what you call "Lithuanian" are the universal Ashkenazi names; maarich, tarcha etc. are purely Sephardic, and the Italians have different names again. I do sympathize (I'm Sephardi myself), but the general convention for resources of pan-Jewish interest is to use the Ashkenazi names. For example, the Ashkenazi names are used in all Hebrew grammars (Davidson, Gesenius, Weingreen etc.) and even in the Keter Shem Tob of that fine Sephardi rabbi Shem Tob Gaguine. This is an oddity (grammars follow Sephardi conventions in all other matters), but it may be explained by the fact that ta'amim were first explained to a Christian audience by Reuchlin, who lived in Germany.
I do agree with merging the two tables, but I do not have the technical expertise to do so myself. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Almost all study cantillation study-tools published in Israel today give the student all the options for the names of the teamim, according to all communities. Of course the chart should include the Sephardic names, and anyone who wants to update it is welcome! Dovi 18:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I am not against this. However, it will then be impossible to incorporate into the table the explanations of the meanings of the names, as each ta'am will have more than one name. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 21:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
It shouldn't be so much of a problem to construct the chart in a way that shows the various names for each ta'am and explains them. Especially if it is primarily organized in terms of different levels of dividers and joiners, as it should be, rather than by name. Dovi 11:19, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm strongly against the merge. The result would be hopelessly cluttered and confusing.--R613vlu 23:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Coda" motif?

Are we talking about the descent to D (where Ashk. Torah is in F major, and Seph. Torah is in E1/2b Siga, Ashk. Haftara in d minor, Seph. Haftara in G Nawa)? I'm not even sure the "coda" is significant in the melodies, but then again, the term is pretty poorly defined. --OneTopJob6 12:19, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking of the English modes. In Western Ashkenazi, every Torah reading ends with C C B A top-A E, C C D E D A (in A minor), while every verse of the haftarah ends A F E D E D C C bottom-G A. The final verse of the haftarah ends A F E D E D C C D E top-G F. In the Spanish and Portuguese mode, every Torah reading ends D G G G G E E D E G E D (in D Rast), and every verse of the haftarah ends with D E D C B D D E D A B C B A (in A minor). I am not acquainted with the Lithuanian melody, and have left a note on the page asking anyone who knows to contribute. As I remember, Syrian Torah readings do indeed descend to D (something like E D E F E D, with E half a tone flat throughout), and I am not sure about haftarah. The basic point is that, in all these reading/verse endings, there is a tune which overrides the normal value of the taamim. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'leyen'

I would think that a Yiddish word would more likely be related to the German 'lesen' than the less similar Latin 'legere'. Yiddish is not a Latinate language at all, and is mostly German. I don't know if I'm pushing any buttons by saying that, but in the interest of scholarly accuracy... Too bad there isn't any reference for that claim. Linguistica (talk) 16:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. But lesen itself was a Romance loan word, with its roots in 'legere'. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 17:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History - Old Babylonian

Does Old Babylonian refer to Old Babylonian/Old Assyrian — 1950 – 1530 BCE? Where is it sourced from?--mrg3105 (comms) If you're not taking any flak, you're not over the target. 02:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

No. It meant Babylonian-Jewish, of the period of the Geonim, c. 8th - 10th century CE. The point is that, in addition to the Tiberian system of accentuation and vowel notation we have today, there were formerly Babylonian (in the sense I have just defined) and Palestinian systems, which were superseded by the Tiberian system by the 12th century. (The Yemenites carried on using the Babylonian system a little longer.) The source for the Babylonian cantillation letters is Kahle, Masoreten des Ostens. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 10:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Syrian Origin For Yerushalmi Tradition

Is there any proof that Yerushalmi is a direct decendant of Syrian system? sure it uses maqam sikah (as does turkish,As does Greek,As does Egyptian,As do karaites) but the tropes dont correspond one on one or even closely to the Paterns of Ajnas, If anything Yerushalmi is Closer to turkish System, also does anyone know the origin of the "barkai SYrian" system? Thanx --74.72.241.193 (talk) 05:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)Zohar

For some time (certainly since the mid-nineteenth century) the Turkish, Syrian, Jerusalem and Egyptian musical traditions have formed a continuum; despite the diverse backgrounds (Arab for the Syrians; Spanish for the Turkish and Jerusalem communities) these were all overlaid with the general "Ottoman" musical system. However, the Jerusalem tradition (not only in cantillation, also in baqashot etc.) was strongly influenced by the Aleppo immigrants in 1850 and again in 1900, and the present "Jerusalem-Sephardic" tradition, while it is an amalgam of all the Ottoman systems, has a strong Syrian element. I have not done a detailed comparison of the cantillation systems; in some ways Syrian retains a resemblance to Baghdadi, which is outside this continuum and more purely Arab. I'd be very pleased if someone contributed more detailed information. By "barkai", do you mean the more elaborate system for Torah cantillation? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)