Talk:Canadian Pacific Railway/archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

1 Last Spike
2 Incorporation of CPR
3 Map
4 Facts about the Canadian Pacific
5 Still too much red ink for FAC status
6 Navvies
7 Other CPR Topics
8 The Syndicate
9 Roster data
10 Steam Train
11 Coolies
12 Van Horne
13 Connaught Tunnel
14 Latta Sub
15 Indisputable?
16 "Carnarvon Terms Or Separation!"
17 Canadian Pacific Investments, CP Shipping, Marathon, Cominco?

Last Spike

According to the Globe & Mail Style Book 2003, Last Spike should be capitalized. GreatWhiteNortherner 07:30, May 9, 2004 (UTC)

Incorporation of CPR

CPR Incorporation was February 16, 1881. Not 1880. R.L.Kennedy 1800 July 23, 2004

Map

Shouldn't we have a map here somewhere? just my opinion but i thought it was a good idea :P SECProto 16:04, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, we should have a system map for this article. Very few railroad articles right now have system maps, but I think they all should have at least one map to show the extent of the railroad(s) in question. I haven't had a chance to try creating any yet, but I was planning to add a System maps subsection to Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Todo#Articles to improve to highlight the need on our project page. slambo 16:56, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

I just finished creating a network map for the CPR while I should have been studying for my exam tomorrow. Suggestions and comments are appreciated. If someone has a good idea on how to incorporate it into the article, please feel free to do so. Image:CanadianPacificRailwayNetworkMap.png. Al guy 01:55, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
- Looks great! Let's go ahead and add the image to the article. Not sure where in the article it best fits right now, but we can always add it near the top and move it around later. JYolkowski 15:25, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Way cool! As we add enough system maps for the railroad articles, we should probably add them into the Template:Railroad infobox much like the geography articles (Wisconsin, for example) has the map in the infobox. slambo 16:33, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)

Facts about the Canadian Pacific

I removed this section because it sounded like trivia and hence unencyclopedic. I tried to move as many facts into other sections but there are three that didn't fit. If anyone wants to try putting these in context somewhere in the article, feel free.

The CPR has created and owns 80 tunnels and 3,000 bridges.
CPR employs 24,000 workers.
CPR owns 48,000 freight cars. The railroad spends about $1 billion annually for maintenance, repairs and improvements.

-JYolkowski 01:16, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Still too much red ink for FAC status

I think we need to make war on the remaining red wikis in the article before it will be taken seriously as a FAC candidate. I'm very surprised that some things (like Delaware and Hudson) don't have articles already... Fawcett5 05:01, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that was something I was slightly concerned about (although I haven't gotten any comments about that on WP:FAC). I took a look through the article a few hours ago and counted fourteen redlinks, not including the navigation templates. Since then, I've unlinked three terms and created four new articles, including a D&H one. As for why the D&H didn't have an article, we used to have an article on the D&H but it was deleted as a copyvio. Also, I think you've created one new one. So that brings us down to six redlinks, which is probably alright. JYolkowski 18:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is looking a bit better. I will have a crack at John Macoun and Yellowhead Pass in the next few days. Some of the things that were unwikied should DEFINITELY get their own articles at some point, such as the crowsnest pass agreement (but I'm biased, I was the one that added that stuff). Looking now, I think the special train section detracts a bit from the coherency of the article, although there is some good stuff there, especially the role the North-West rebellion played. Can it be reworked? Also we should add a bit about how Crowfoot allowed contruction through Blackfoot territory after negotiations with Father Albert Lacombe. I've just finished adding the Lacombe article, but Crowfoot's is way underdeveloped. Still, it's not a red wiki. Fawcett5 21:33, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I might be biased here because it's one of the few sections I didn't write from scratch, but I too have mixed feelings about the "Special trains" section. I feel that some of it makes sense to be there instead of elsewhere, but other stuff doesn't really need its own section. Two sections aren't really saying anything so I'm going to remove them and maybe add a sentence or two elsewhere. I'll leave the other sections in but copyedit them a bit more. JYolkowski 00:24, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm still going to get around to this. Between the power failure problems and being busy with real-world stuff I haven't been around here much this week, but I'll maybe do this this weekend. JYolkowski 23:37, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Now only ONE red wiki, and Featured article status has been granted!

Yes! JYolkowski 23:37, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Navvies

The material on Navvies is interesting and good, but there is too much detail here for an article specifically about the CPR. The article is already greater than 32K. I would argue that much of it should be moved to the article on Navvies. Since they played such an important role in building the CPR, they certainly merit a mention on the main page, but the detail should be elsewhere. Opinions?

Well, for one thing, "navvy" was not a term used for the Chinese railway workers; it was expressly for British navvies and there was no doubt that such a man as Navvy Jack was anything but a Brit. Bowering's history of BC does another headspin with archaic working terms by calling the Chinese "gandy dancers", a term probably unknown to them and certainly not bestowed on them by Onderdonk's foremen (and in more recent years, the name of a famous but no longer extant gay bar in what has since become Vancouver's Yaletown district; now Bar None for those who know the area). Further to this, the article makes no mention of non-Chinese workers. And also fails to mention the brutal violence at Camp 23.....Skookum1 17:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The Syndicate

Looking over the article again for the first time in awhile, I notice that the members of "the syndicate" get pretty short shrift. Donald Alexander Smith is mentioned only in context of the Last Spike. James J. Hill is not mentioned, and the same for Norman Kittson. Also, there is now a very nice article for Lord Dufferin, and his contribution to the political machinations could bear mentioning somewhere.... Yolkowski, are you up for it? Fawcett5 17:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think that sort of information is better in Canadian Pacific Railway Company or Canadian Pacific Limited (and I am going to write one of them someday and redirect the other one to it one day, seriously!). I think that at least a mention of their names etc. would fit in this article though. I'll take a look at that shortly. JYolkowski 00:05, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have also been getting material together to do a separate article for the Canadian Pacific Survey, where I can deal with some of the explorer types that I like to write about in more detail. At this point though I'm still doing background research. Fawcett5 22:48, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You will find lots of interesting material. The government stalled on this and spent years surveying Canada over and over again. Look for Sanford Fleming and his published Reports, also Ocean to Ocean. R.L.Kennedy 00:25, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In some blatant self promotion, you may find my website on the BC aspects of the surveys useful [1]. It is exam time here, so I'm not able to put much time into this right now, though. Al guy 00:40, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Where does Berton say Kittson was a member of the Syndicate? There were only six members and he was NOT one of them. R.L.Kennedy 01:53, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Kittson was a silent member of the syndicate, a fact which he intentionally concealed. See the entry for "Cast of Major characters" in the prefatory material for the National Dream - Berton explicitly says "Member of CPR syndicate, 1880". Also Chapter 8, section 5 "The syndicate is born". (pg. 329 in my copy, but it is a pre-publication printer's proof from before the first edition, page numbering may have been different in the actual pressing)

Fawcett5 02:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Page ix of The Last Spike, Cast of Major Characters, The CPR Syndicate, does NOT include Kitson. re: Chap.8 sec 5. This is the first vol. The National Dream. p.329 refers to Kittson in that early stage of things. He is not mentioned in later writings esp. the above p. ix There is nothing to say he was a secret member. I would suggest we not rewrite history or Burton's work. At best, a notation, "Kitson was thought to be a secret member of the Syndicate" but, only if there is something to back it up, and I don't see that in what you site. Any other reference? Advise. R.L.Kennedy 21:48, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm no expert on this but I looked through my CPR materials. Berton's National Dream lists Kittson as a member of the Syndicate but Last Spike does not. Cruise & Griffiths Lords of the Line reports the syndicate as "comprised primarily of Stephen, Kennedy, Hill, Angus and Smith, whose name didn't appear" (page 88, my emphasis). Gibbon's 1935 Steel of Empire lists the names on the CPR contract with "a syndicate containing the names of George Stephen and Duncan McIntyre, of Montreal, John S. Kennedy, of New York, Richard Angus and James J. Hill, of St. Paul, Minnesota, Morton, Rose & Company, of London, England, and Kohn Reinach & Company, of Paris, France." (p206). Gibbon also has a quote of a letter from Stephen to Macdonald that discusses Kittson and Hill as part the Company but says the real control will be by "Angus, Kennedy, McIntrye and myself[Stephen]." but this letter is obviously trying to downplay the role of American interests. I don't think any of these sources really resolves the issue, unfortunately. Al guy 22:54, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

Maybe I'll have a look at Innis (see references) next time I'm at the library. It's generally an authoritative source (unless there's new information that's come to light since 1923). JYolkowski // talk 00:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is no mention of Kittson that I could find in Innis. Innis discusses the 'capitalists' involved but does not mention Kittson although the language is coached to suggest that the list of capitalists discussed is not necessarily exhaustive (p97 of 1972 reprint). Kittson does not appear in the index. Al guy 01:14, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

RL, I am NOT rewriting history or Berton. First of all, it is indisputible that Kittson had a large financial stake in it. He was as much a member of the Syndicate as was Smith who was ALSO not named in the contract. Continue reading Berton from Chapter 9, section 2, pg 350:

The members were George Stephen and Duncan McIntyre of Montreal; John S. Kennedy of New York; James J. Hill and Richard B. Angus of St. Paul; Sir John Rose's old firm of Morton, Rose and Company, London; and the German-French financial syndicate of Kohn, Reinach and Company. Norman Kittson, who had an interest, was not named at the time: too many men with St Paul addresses would have caused a storm in the opposition press. There was, as well, another name far more conspicuous by it's absence — that of Donald A. Smith.

Fawcett5 00:48, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That paragraph sounds very authoritative to me. I'd say put him in as a member and perhaps make a mention somehow of the political tensions involved, such as the animosity between JohnA and Smith and the desire for a Canadian syndicate. "Some members of the syndicate, namely Smith and Kittson, were not named prominently for political expedience." Al guy 01:24, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

I tend to agree. JYolkowski // talk 01:37, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Roster data

Recent addition of locomotive and roster data contains many inaccuracies and I have deleted it. The CPR order for Green Goat hybrid locomotives is for 7 units and a tentative further 28 provided the first ones work out. Their purpose is not solely fuel conservation, rather reduction in greenhouse gas emmissions is a key factor. The maker, Railpower Technologies Corp. is based in North Vancouver, BC not Calgary, AB

Totals of units are wrong. You need a better source of up todate information such as the Canadian Trackside Guide, an annual publication. The total of units already in the Article (paragraph above) is more accurate.

There is no such thing as CP Rail except in newspaper stories. It has been for some time now, Canadian Pacific Railway.R.L.Kennedy 02:52, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the new current locomotive roster is unsightly and detracts from the narrative flow of the article. It's nice information to have, but should be definitely spun off somehow. Opinions? Fawcett5 12:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Looks like it got removed before I looked at this page, which I think is just as well since it was rather out-of-date. If anyone does want to add a locomotive roster, I would suggest adding it in a separate article. Too much detail, and this article's big enough as it is. Personally I'm somewhat dubious about having one because, for a company as big as the CPR, the information is going to change really rapidly. JYolkowski 00:11, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Steam Train

2816 was repatriated back to Canada from the United States. It went off CPR records January 1964, but was not on display until some months later in Bellows Falls, Vermont. This was years after the end of the steam era on the CPR. CPR absorbs all costs associated with operating the steam train, not just the locomotive. R.L.Kennedy 21:32, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC) Official CPR Empress Volunteer

Coolies

I'm always a little suspicious of anonymous edits. This is a term I hadn't heard before, but Googling for "coolies and railroad" shows that the term, albeit a bit derogatory, is real. slambo 20:56, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

See the "navvy" section for my comments there; like it or not, the Chinese were referred to as "coolies" and "chinamen", NOT as "navvies" or "gandy dancers", which were terms for whites/Brits. Coolie's etymology, by the way, is the Hindi kuli - "slave, worker" - and was not in its original setting derogatory - same as "Chinaman", which is derived from Chinese-English pidgin but since has been claimed to have been "invented by white people to discriminate against Chinese people with" (that's a quote from a local BC politician, either Victor Yukmun Wong or Jenny Kwan). Coolie was a commonplace term for any Chinese worker in BC, especially a railway worker; to NOT use it would be revisionism IMO. This article makes it sound like only Chinese people worked on the railway (certainly the CCNC's pretense) and omits mention of the many Indians, Irish and others who also worked on it.....

Van Horne

'Van Horne' is referenced in the 1881-1885 section, but he is not introduced until later in the article. This is poor form.

Connaught Tunnel

You write in the acticle, that the Connaught Tunnel tunnel was the longest rail tunnel in the world when it was opened in 1916 with 5 miles. This is incorrect: It was the Arlberg Tunnel in 1884 with 6.4 miles. See Arlberg. Even the rail tunnel through the Saint Gotthard in Switzerland was longer at that time (unfortunatly I don't know the exact date and length of the latter). --Eddie2 14:48, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fawcett5 changed it to "longest in the Western Hemisphere", which it was. JYolkowski // talk 16:34, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Latta Sub

The relatively long (ex-SOO, nee MILW) Latta Subdivision in Indiana was just sold off to Indiana Railroad. Should this be mentioned in here, or perhaps the SOO Line article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Schnauf (talk • contribs)

It's already in Indiana Rail Road, perhaps just updating that (with a reference) would be more appropriate? If we add one subdivision sale here, then we could open ourselves up to a "slippery slope" requiring us to list all divestitures from larger carriers. Slambo (Speak) 18:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Indisputable?

the CPR remains an indisputable icon of Canadian nationalism.

Whew, that's a bit strong. Kinda POV from a British Columbian's perspective too, i.e. "remains an indisputable icon of Central Canadian domination of the economy of the Western provinces". I'm not meaning to sound all Reform Party over this; BC's history is inextricable from that of the CPR in a number of ways - but in general while it does have political-memory associations with nation-building, calling it an "indisputable icon of Canadian nationalism" is an over-reach and rather than being an icon of nationalism out here, it's an icon of monopoly corporate politics and high-sounding deals with the East that never worked out in BC's favour.Skookum1 18:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

"Carnarvon Terms Or Separation!"

Probably only someone familiar with BC history would recognize that phrase, which greeted eastern politicians on their visits to BC, as well as Lord Dufferin on his viceregal journey here; important though it is to Canadian history it's not in the "national curriculum" (as with most important bits of BC history, except those that make Canada sound good). The Carnarvon Terms refer to the original deal between Canada and BC concerning the building of the railway; Ottawa's intransigence, and the hostility of the Mackenzie government towards BC politicians (Arthur Bunster in particular, and it didn't help that Arthur Bunster called Mackenzie out of the Commons and punched him in the nose outside...), led to widespread discontent in the only-just-previously colony and the refrain of this slogan became familiar in BC newspapers and political rhetoric. I was surprised in the pre-CPR section overleaf to not see any mention of it, or of the shift in the building arrangements that was settled on (I'll dig out the details, and the whys and wherefores of the dispute) during the renegotiated deal that finally led to construction commencing in '81. Railway politics in BC deserves more discussion in this article, including the roots of "the Chinese problem" in Canada's and Britain's refusal to enhance immigration from the British Isles to BC to get the railway built. Also important and glaringly missing here is a discussion of the politics and land-speculation game played by the CPR concerning the routing and terminus of the railway, and how Victoria basically got snookered out of being the main city of hte province, and how the CPR was basically a colonial overlord over the early City of Vancouver; as with my comment just above about corporate monopoly politics, it's a truism that the CPR built Vancouver, ran Vancouver, owned Vancouver, and that it is something of an island/colony of Canadian culture/identity in an otherwise British Columbian sea (as still today, in fact); even the mansions of Shaughnessy were built to house CPR execs (the province's/colony's old wealth was largely on the Island or in New West), and otherwise dominated the economy in every area it ran through. The neutralized discussion of the Crow Rate needs expansion as it does not deal with how this was designed to suppress the growth of industry west of the Great Lakes, nor matters such as how the CPR kept a lockdown on the provincial economy by forcing any goods shipped to places like Kamloops or Trail to have to be shipped to Vancouver first, warehoused there (in CPR warehouses), and then shipped back upcountry.Skookum1 17:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Also material/fresh dirt on the Pacific Scandal from http://www.dickshovel.com/two.html and http://www.dickshovel.com/two2.html is more than valid and should be incorporated here.Skookum1 17:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Canadian Pacific Investments, CP Shipping, Marathon, Cominco?

I tried "Canadian Pacific", but it redirects to the railway only; granted the railway is where they got the dough and resources to do all the rest, but it strikes me that a Canadian Pacific wikipage should be about a lot more than the railroad. Just created a redlink for CP Shipping on Coal Harbour and not sure what to do from here....will check Marathon and Cominco to see where those go, if anywhere.Skookum1 23:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Up to a few years ago Canadian Pacific was an investment company that controlled Canadian Pacific Petroleum, CP Shipping, CP Hotels etc. Everything was sold off (including the railway) apart from the hotel business which was merged into another company. I agree a full paragraph should be done on the sale of CP companies which were many.

Categories: Talk archives