Talk:Canada Park

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Contents

[edit] Propaganda

Avilyn, let's avoid an edit war. You removed my entry that provided some background for the Israeli attack on the villages. Without this information the reader is led to mistakenly believe that Israel arbitrary decided to attack those villages just for the heck of it, when any serious student of the region recent history knows this is just not true. Besides, the section on international law is hardly suitable for an article on a park.

I will restore the entry you deleted and I am respectfully asking you to remove the international law entry and replace it by a suitable external reference. Again, this is an article on a park, not a propaganda piece.

Danielcohn 07:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Daniel I would be more than happy to avoid an edit war with you. Perhaps we can come to an agreement. I removed the section on 1967 because the sentences were incomplete and grammatically problemtic. Now that you have reinserted them in a way that is more comprehensible I have no problems with leaving the section as is. I must however insist that "occupation" remains "occupation" as opposed to "administration", which is factually incorrect (see International Law, United Nations resolutions, as well as statements by current and previous Israeli governments) as well as terribly misleading to the reader. The section on international law must also remain given its relevance to the topic as the site of a war crime. I am confident that readers would be interested in this.

[edit] Scope

I'm sorry but I fail to see how an international law section is relevant to a site on a **PARK**. A detailed and balanced coveragae of the events of the 1967 war, including refugee and legal issues, belongs in an article about the war or about the refugee crisis, not in a site about a park! Can we agree on that?Danielcohn 09:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Nothing about the 1967 war has anything to do with an article on a park. I agree that it's ok to have a brief summary of the destruction of the three villages in this article, but it should not contain in-depth info about the villages because the article isn't about them, it's about the Canada Park. I will remove most of the article's current 'content' if no good reason is raised for why it should be in the article. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The article is about the park not about the villages please read carefully Wikipedia policies and don't restore POV version of the article again|The article is about the park not about the villages please read carefully Wikipedia policies and don't restore POV version of the article again|Thank you.}}--Shrike 15:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Please do you understand about what is subject of article.On what ground you restored unsourced and POV material?Shrike 16:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Also did you read discussion of the article such concerns were raised 2 month ago and there was no response.If have some answer in the talk.I like to hear itShrike 16:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I read it. You were not involved in that discussion months ago and the discussion does not involve erasing the entirety of the article. I will be seeking mediation on this problem. -- VegitaU 20:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
It doesnt matter if I was involved or not the point still stands there and I didnt see you answer there about the scope of the article.Also the sources of the article clearly not WP:RS.--Shrike 20:45, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

(unindent)The discussion never involved mass-removal of everything controversial. And whether or not the sources are reliable, there should be some mention of the controversy on the page, not a complete absolution. -- VegitaU 20:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Again my point still stands the villages has nothing to do with the park .There maybe a mention about a Palestinian claims but it shouldnt make 90% of the article you may create seperate article about that if you want.--Shrike 20:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but what you did was delete everything having to do with that issue. If you felt that a "mention" of it should be in the article, why did you erase everything? -- VegitaU 20:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Becouse I didn't saw any reliable sources on this claims--Shrike 21:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any sources at all for the park. -- VegitaU 21:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shame.

It takes about fifteen seconds of research to discover that, yes, Canada Park is built on the remains of razed Palestinian villages, and yes, that's a highly salient fact if not the most salient fact about the entire park. I'm disgusted with those editors who blithely proclaim, "oh, it's only a park, stop trying to push Palestinian claims into the article". Shall we bulldoze Pittsburgh, rename it "Indonesia Park", and then declare that it's "only a park", therefore the history doesn't matter? Shame. Eleland 20:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no dispute that it was founded on existent Arab villages. What disturbed me is you terminology. Words like "razed» or "demolished" is clearly POV. Also statements by Israeli leftists are hardly NPOV too it’s an opinion and polemical piece but defiantly not a news piece it doesn’t bring events from the spot. Present you changes in talk first so we can discuss them and reach consensus. Also mind WP:CIVIL.--Shrike 07:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Don't talk to me about WP:CIVIL. You are effectively denying ethnic cleansing, and your rationale is incoherent. The villages were demolished. You know it, I know it, and the sources say it. If it makes Israel look bad, that's not POV and it's not Wikipedia's problem.
Here is a Ha'aretz news piece - not an editorial - which says "destroyed". Here is a charming fluff piece ("Splendour on the Grass") from the Ha'aretz travel section, which says "Guidebooks note that Canada Park was created on the soil of four Arab villages - Deir Ayyub, Beit Nuba, Yalu and Emmaus - which were razed to the ground after the Six-Day War of 1967, leaving only their orchards. However, there's no need to think about that: this is a time to sit back and relax," which sums up your attitude nicely. Eleland 13:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Huh what are talking about? If it is another opinion piece. You know what I am ready to compromise with you we will keep NPOV term "the lands of the former..." and you can add a source about where Palestinians reside now and add the Haaretz link in external links section.--Shrike 14:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, my bad, the Ha'aretz article I linked is indeed an opinion piece. Of course, there is absolutely no prohibition against using opinion pieces as sources, since reliable newspapers vett the factual statements therein. In this particular case, the information has been published numerous times by numerous editorial writers, and in fact, the information has been physically posted on the park site (according to sources quoted by the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs as well as pieces in Ha'aretz and elsewhere). Furthermore, the information is also in regular news pieces pieces, such as this one about highway expansion and this one about Palestinian fears of more expulsions. Human Rights Watch informs us that "The IDF razed the villages of Beit Nuba, ‘Imwas, and Yalu, located near the strategic Latrun salient northwest of Jerusalem, in June 1967; later, a recreational area called “Canada Park” was built in their place." If you want us to be sure to use the best sources available, that is one thing. We can certainly use the Ha'aretz news pieces instead of the Ha'aretz editorials which say the same thing. Human Rights Watch would be another excellent edition. But don't present a problem of verifiability where none exists. The destruction of those villages is clearly verified by reliable sources. Eleland 15:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, your proposal to mention that Palestinian villages used to be there, and now they aren't, without explaining how this happened, is considered and rejected. We do not "compromise" by removing sourced and factual information from articles for invalid reasons. The mainstream Israeli sources say "razed", "demolished", or "destroyed". Your proposed compromise simply blurs and confuses the facts in order to pretty up Israel. Eleland 15:59, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RfC: Arab villages

How should this article discuss the former inhabitants of the area?