Talk:Canada's role in the invasion of Afghanistan

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March 28/2008

Major Fletcher commanded C company of the PPCLI battlegroup and serves in Edmonton. He is clearly a PPCLI officer. Capt Derek x from Saskatchewan was an infantry platoon commander as a lieutenant with the same battalion in April 2006, according to press reports,attended McGill in Montreal which has noted his award, and serves in the West. He also has to be a Patricia, although it is less clear what he was doing in Afghanistan in Sept 2006, when the RCR had already taken over - perhaps he volunteered to stay on for a while as LO to the Americans.Too bad no one can confirm this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.201.119.194 (talk) 03:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

March 18/2008. There are two Canadian winners of Medal of valour decorations, whose regiment is not mentioned. This is because (!) no one knows, which is indeed shameful or (2) because they are/were with Special Forces, whose secrecy was recently ridiculed by Gen. McNeill who sees no need for it and thinks that Canadian accomplishments whould be noted. If a Canadian receives an honour, it is in order to publicise his deed. It is preposterous to make an award, issue a press release, but then say it is secret!!! Please, for someone who is no longer subject to the childish constraints of DND, please indicate the Regiments or Branch that these obviously heroic officers belong to. 24.201.119.194 (talk) 01:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Sept/23/06

President Karzai's recent visit should be mentioned somewhere.


Apr 22/06 casualties listed under March. Also all ranks are abrieviated for said event except Bombadier...changed to keep consistant. Motorfix 17:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

No Mention of why we went into Afghanistan. This is more a timeline of events. This could do with a proper intro.

Motorfix 19:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

According to this article all Canadians have done since March 2006 is get injured and killed. Leave it to CBC to focus on body counts (and Tim Hortons in theatre). How about some information on what Canadian soldiers are actually doing? --M4-10 22:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

OPSEC might preclude some info, but I agree with the sentiment that the "article" is really just an unveiled mortality count.Michael Dorosh 00:21, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the main problem is with sentences like "Canadian forces undertake Operation Harpoon as part of Operation Anaconda in the Shah-i-Kot Valley.", and they just wikilink to the actual in-depth articles. It would be nice to have a one-paragraphy summary of what each operation was inside this article, so the reader has a clear idea. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 01:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I have noticed this as well. The article is our role in the invasion, but it doesn't discuss our role in detail. It is more a timeline of events. I'll see if I can work on this a bit.Motorfix 15:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we need Timeline of the Canadian forces in Afganistan, or something, and this article properly cleaned up? It's horrible right now. -b 18:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Expenditure for Afghanistan

Does anyone know what the Canadian military's total expenditure has been so far in Afghanistan ever since 2001? A number and a source would be appreciated. I tried to find it myself, but couldn't find any specific numbers. Perhaps it should even be something to add to the article.

I doubt you'll find it. The mission cost was brought up recently by politicians but there were major disagreements over what should be included. --M4-10 18:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fatalities

I'm going to move from a list to a table, to explore in more detail each death and circumstance. -b 18:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps start a new page? List of Canadians killed? Motorfix 03:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
List of Canadians killed in Afganistan or List of Canadian Fatalities in Afganistan? -b 03:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Either one would be a candidate for deletion. "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of lists." The article as is seems very unencyclopedic and a list would be moreso. I had a listing of fatal casualties at Crescent Heights High School that was removed for the same reason - basically, it is not appropriate for an encyclopedia. I'd even be in favour of deleting the names altogether, not only is it morbid, but it actually seems disrespectful given that the only information in this article has to do with who died and not with what the soldiers are accomplishing over there.Michael Dorosh 03:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Michael. We do not have to mention name for name every soldier killed. Each death is it's own tragedy, but can you picture what the US Invasion of Iraq page would look like if they named each loss? Even the timeline of events doesn't say much. I'd love to edit or help, but alas, as the father of two busy boys...I barely have time for a game of combat mission these days! Motorfix 04:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the page and done a quick bit of research on the various missions - will need fleshing out and corrections, but it is a start. The info on fatalities does not belong in the main text and so I've moved some of it to the fatality listing. I won't ask you for a Combat Mission setup then, either. ;-) Michael Dorosh 04:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree, for the record. Good start Michael. By the way, what's with the title of the article? The invasion was so 2001. --M4-10 00:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Don't know what is up with the title, was set up this way. We could change it if we wanted.Michael Dorosh 04:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


Mmmkay, so I've created a sandbox for this article (as opposed to creating a third on my userpage) to experiment with the idea of a table. Canada's role in the invasion of Afghanistan/Sandbox, based roughly on a CBC idea. [1] Thoughts? -b 07:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks very good, and the thought occurred to me as well the info might be better presented as a table. I'm still unsure that the casualties should receive so much focus. They deserve a mention but may not be encyclopedic per WP standards. For now, I would say go ahead and complete the table - it's very nicely done. I suppose if there are objections to it we can discuss at that time and cross the bridge when we come to it. If the information really is seen to be encylopedic, the table offers a much better and accessible format. At some point we may want to include a column for photographs, as well.Michael Dorosh 13:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Unless anyone has any problems, I'll be moving it from the sandbox to the article sometime tomorrow. -b 03:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit uneasy about the latest entry. "Accidental discharge" makes it sound like he himself was at fault - not a great way to remember him. The correct term, "negligent discharge", makes it sound even worse. I think it would be closer to the truth to just say "non-combat death" or "accidental death" as it requires the least explanation.Michael Dorosh 03:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
See comments in your sandbox talk page regarding a suggested place to move it and some minor adjustments.Cheers,

Motorfix 03:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Private Costall, friendly fire

An inquiry into his death was recently concluded [2], and while we have to wait for the results, shouldn't it still be included? Also, and this is ignorance, isn't an accidental discharge considered friendly fire? -b 19:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't aware of Costall. No we should not wait for the results, that is speculation. Also, An accidental discharge is not "friendly fire", I raised this subject a few days ago in your sandbox. See also negligent discharge.Michael Dorosh 20:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Political Aspect

I have added info on our diplomatic history a bit. Worthwile, or not? Motorfix 22:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I think so. Good work today. Michael Dorosh 23:42, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Material

Current gov. website with info on all Missions and deployments.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1703 Motorfix 23:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Units

Might it be worthwile to list units and military organization of Canadian Forces in Afghanistan? Perhaps on a seperate page? Motorfix 16:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The units change every 6 months, and every regular force infantry, armour, and field artillery unit has or will get a go. --M4-10 19:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
As well, individual augmentees from reserve units get mentioned frequently in the news, which is no doubt confusing to most of the public - for example, a fellow from the Loyal Edmonton Regiment was seriously injured today in the G-Wagen accident that unfortunately killed another soldier. (I see CTV has referred to it as the "Royal Edmonton Regiment"). There would be no way to track which reserve units were contributing; my own unit has deployed about two dozen soldiers alone. Should they be mentioned? I don't believe there is any publicly available information on which unit has reservists deployed though I do understand they are over there serving directly with PPCLI, RCR, etc. I realize the press is publishing the names of units as is the official Army website so security is not an issue, but is it really encyclopedic to keep a running tally even of just the major units involved? It seems like a lot of extraneous detail which is being done in lieu of substantial information relating to the mission itself.Michael Dorosh 19:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Well said. -b 23:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
It would be interesting to see a streamlined list of the Battle Groups organized according to their change of command dates. MC —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marccote (talk • contribs) 16:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

Slightly different focus here... the article refers to the Canadian tanks as Leopard Battle Tanks. This is correct, though I didn't see it specify which model of Leopard (unless I missed that part). I believe we currently have Leopard C2's there do we not? The model is a somewhat important distinction in my opinion given that the original Leopard debuted in the mid 1960's, and the version we are using now is much more advanced. Canuckman55 (talk) 02:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Canuckman55

[edit] Name change

As above, the title of this article is completely outdated. It definitely needs a new title. Suggestions? -b 03:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] For/Against arguments?

Hi, I looked this article up because I'm currently undecided about Canada's role in Afghanistan, and wanted to learn more. However, the article is extremely vague, and details the mechanics of Canada's involvement, more than the reasons for it/arguments supporting/condemning it. A brief disection of our 3 missions there would be great, too. "Defending our national interests?" That's rather vague, and really not helpful. What are our national interests, and why? What will be the reprecussions for having those interests, and who in Parliament supports them? Those sorts of things seem far more important and encyclopedic than a list of the casualties, which, to be honest, is cluttering to the article. Perhaps a seperate article, "Canadian Casualties in Afghanistan" should be made, since there's really no point to listing off each individual who has died in the confrontation; as thoughtful as it is, in the long run, I find it irrelevant.

-Jackmont, Aug 10

While I agree about the casualty list and strongly agree that we should have more information about what has and what is happening there, I disagree about for/against arguments, as they are unencyclopedic. "Canada's role in the invasion of Afghanistan" (an awful title) is just one major part of larger Liberal and Conservative foreign policy regarding the Middle East and the War on Terrorism and the foreign policy considerations are beyond the scope of this article. --M4-10 05:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. Our role as editors is not to advocate a political position but to report facts in as balanced a manner as possible and allow the reader to interpret them for themselves. The article should not betray any one side - see WP:NPOV.Michael Dorosh 05:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Title

How about "Canadian military operations in Afghanistan"? Or does that ignore our diplomatic and aid accomplishments? Should the article include the latter? If not, then would this be a better title?Michael Dorosh 05:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there is a good answer for this, but one option is to get rid of this page and simply have fleshed out pages for Op Apollo, Op Athena, and OP Archer, with each explicitly linking to the Op before and after it. Each operation has been reasonably distinct in intent, disposition, and mission area. Your suggestion is acceptable as a minimum, interim solution. "The Invasion of Afghanistan" may have been obvious in 2002, but Afghanistan has been invaded what, dozens of times? --M4-10 07:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
It has been refered to a few times as the "Canadian Mission in Afganistan" by the media. Perhaps something like this? It would be nice to keep this article as a hybrid of military, diplomatic and aid work. -b 15:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
How about "Canada's role in ISAF"? I know the content within is not strictly ISAF but we can make those sections clear and it is a more natural link from ISAF. --M4-10 18:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Military Operations. role in the invasion of Afghanistan is clearly POV. --Deenoe 01:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see this article reflect the military, diplomatic, aid and rebuilding roles that Canada is engaged in, so I think any name change should leave room for that. how about just "Canada's role in Afghanistan" or "Canada's role in Afghanistan since 2002"?. Mike McGregor (Can) 02:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
"I agree with Military Operations. role in the invasion of Afghanistan is clearly POV. "
I would not consider the title POV: the term invasion is used by military historians and commentators in a neutral way. Calling the invasion of Normandy "The Invasion of Normandy" does not imply disapproval of the invasion of Normandy, and theoretically, calling the invasion of Afghanistan what it is should also not imply a lack of neutrality.
On the other hand, I think the title should be changed because it is clear that the article now deals with events that occurred many years after the invasion was completed. An article on the involvement of Canadians in the invasion of Afghanistan would come to an end at events in early 2002.

Ordinary Person (talk) 03:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bias?

This entire Canada in Afghanistan article smells of bias and I return to suggest changes to be made after I do some more research. Jack Layton doesn't represent the anti-war movement in this country. He's just one voice.--Apples99 05:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

PM Harper and Defense Minister O'Connor should be mentioned in the 2006-2007 commitments, just as Graham Martin Chretien were when they were in office, previously in the page. This article is biased, support for Afghan mission has been 50/50 for almost all of Harpers leadership time in the PM's office, even if some liberals have flip flopped and turned on a mission they started. As for polls, Harper is crushing liberal leader Dion, and all the opposition parties are pissing themselves over an election. They cry on tv every day that they don't want one. I suggest the people who have worked on this article look for the facts of this soon. I don't want to have to take a weed wacker to this thing. And since I have not got around to learning how to show proof (links etc.) I hope someone can take care of this. If not, I'll be back, all knowledged up. Show your wikisense and fix it yourself, I ain't your daddy. Don't make me take you over my knee.

Also, someone may want to mention the tanks sent, and the new money (2007) being given to Afghanistan. I would do it right now, but like I said, still need me some computer book learnins. Jeremy99 13:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Why are there so few links to this page throughout Wikipedia? All the Afghan war templates link to the article on "Canada" which seems idiotic - can we not change them to link to this article instead?

[edit] 2007 Torture Allegations

There have been a lot of allegations of torture in Canada's mission in Afghanistan and the related cover-ups by the government, some references to this should be on the main page. Jermdeeks 18:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

you are seriously mistaken, the Canadian soldiers never tortured anyone. What is being stated in the media is that, a highly dubious agency is claiming the captured enemy combatants were being handed over to local Afghanistani forces, that MIGHT possibly torture them. There has never been an actual documented instance of torture.
--Jadger 18:10, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Hence "allegations". I came to this page for an unbiased, complete overview of what is in the news on the daily basis but found nothing on the topic. This issue should be documented somewhere on Wikipedia to provide knowledge on it, no? Jermdeeks 20:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

not really, I was reading in the Toronto Sun yesterday that the Corrections Canada officers were told by two inmates they were abused (not tortured) and there was an investigation, and there was no evidence to support the claims. That is as far as it goes, it is simply a political pawn for the opposition parties to try to draw a connection between Harper administration and Abu Graihb.

--Jadger 08:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference rot

"On October 28, 2006, anti-war groups from across Canada organised rallies in 40 cities and towns. Themes of the demonstrations included demands that the troops be brought home from Afghanistan and demands that the mission of the Canadian Forces in that country shift from a combat role to a peace keeping and humanitarian presence. Participation varied from city to city, with some demonstrations attracting a handful of people, and others attracting several hundred. Canoe News article about Oct. 28th, 2006 Peace Protests reference link has been removed. needs reference 65.95.139.186 01:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

This is the CBC story on the subject, but It doesn't seem to include crowd estimates... I'll dig around a bit tomorrow over my morning coffeeMike McGregor (Can) 07:24, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[3] Mike McGregor (Can) 18:26, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] timeline of unit deployments?

What would you guys think of some sort of table showing a timeline of when the specific units were deployed? I was thinking either by battalions or brigade group. Mike McGregor (Can) 01:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

If there is a similar timeline regarding the Brit and USA deployments in other articles, then it makes sense to me; but if it's just done here and nowhere else, it seems to me to be too introspective. Mr.grantevans2 12:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Could someone add citations to the section referencing Canada's role in October 2001 (including JTF2 and Cretien's announcement). I presume this information is correct, but I'm having a hell of a time finding any sources on Google. 70.79.152.96 (talk) 01:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What was the position of the Conservatives re: deployment of troops in 2001/2002?

Was Harper the opposition leader in 2001/2002?

What was the position of the Reform/Conservative party at the time regarding deployment of Canadian troops to Afghanistan?

[edit] Dogfighting in Afghanistan: Canada's miliary should be proud

i deleted this disgusting comment

And I am going to repeat it, because you have no right to hide or cover it up.

The fact is that what Canadians need to know is that as part of bringing stability to Afghanistan that our military is helping the Afghan people partake in traditional activies which Canadians find disgusting and even illegal - such as organized dog fighting. I for one find it disgusting that the expenditure of my tax dollars and the deaths of dozens of Canadian soldiers is helping to allow Afghans to conduct and enjoy such a terrible activity such as dog fighting.

If you think I'm making this up, you simply have to look here:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=afghanistan+%22dog+fighting%22&meta= —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.243.145 (talk) 03:43, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Invasion should be dropped from the title.

The title of this article should not include invasion since NATO is not a invading or occupational force and is their on request of the Afghan government. Rather it should read Canada's role in Afghanistan, which would make the title more accurate and less biased. Darkfire123 (talk) 01:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the Soviets were also requested to enter by the Afghan government. Doesn't make it any less of an invasion. The term is neutral and applicable. Sherurcij (Because you can't fight terror by spreading fear) 01:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
True however the article talks more about Canada's role in Afghanistan, not Canada's involvement in the invasion itself. If it was about Canada's role in the invasion of Afghanistan then their should be no mention of events post 2002. Darkfire123 (talk) 01:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
The "Soviet Invasion" lasted for ten years, even after all their troops were in the country, it was still referred to as the "Invasion" simply because foreign troops were stationed in a battlezone in the country. Sherurcij (Because you can't fight terror by spreading fear) 03:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
The majority of this article is talking about Canada's role in Afghanistan, not it's role in the invasion way back in 2001-2002. A better title could even be Canada's involvement in the war in Afghanistan. By doing so the title allows a broader view of the overall picture. Take for example if I were to read a article titled 'US designs new jet fuel' but only the first paragraph is about the fuel and the rest is about a new aerodynamic design for airplanes how narrowing the title itself is. Darkfire123 (talk) 06:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)