Talk:Camp Menominee

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[edit] Sources

  • As per the primary sources request, we have added several other sources other then the camp's official website. These are mostly listed at the bottom, but also include first-person testimony from those who attend or have attended the camp, as well as those who know of Camp Menominee. I would therefore ask an administrator to kindly remove the primary sources notification, unless further information is required. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.15.52.179 (talk • contribs) 22:11, November 26, 2006
    • Thank you for the additional references; however, please be aware that information from "first-person testimony" cannot be used on Wikipedia, so please remove anything like that from the article. The only information that can stay, is information that's already been published. Please read Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. Other recommended reading is WP:COI and WP:AUTO. And if you have any questions, please let us know! --Elonka 02:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Fair enough, my response to that would be that I have used publicly available information from documents about the camp. Some of which are available at this link: http://www.campmenominee.com/docs/history.shtml. Does that help address the issue?
      • What you need to do is assert notability. Also we need to be able to verify the list of people in the article. MartinDK 16:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
        • I'm not quite sure how you can verify that list without contacting people individually, unless you take the testimony of people like me who have attended the camp for years and have been profoundly and positively changed by my positive experiences there. I also personally know most if not all of the people on that list, and I can tell you that they are most certainly people who are instrumental in the camp's development. Furthermore, the camp has been specifically mentioned in several media publications both in the Wisconsin area and others throughout the nearly 80 year existence of the camp. I will search for more details about this, with more information forthcoming.
          • The problem is that the criterion is not truth but verifiability. And you cannot act as the primary source yourself. But fair enough, you are working on it so I think you should be given the time needed to gather more sources. MartinDK 14:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
            • If it is of any help, I can verify the information and know of hundreds of other people who can help prove all the information on the page is correct. Moreover, these people who can help verify this article span the globe, which proves the impact Camp Menominee has had. 24.15.74.254 23:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
              • You still need to provide sources that other people can use to verify this. Humans don't make good sources. If you can site a piece of paper available from the camp that proves the participants list then you can use that. It is not that complicated but an encyclopedia needs to be verifiable. Wikipedia is not just a database of searchable information. It is an encyclopedia and with that comes certain restrictions on what kind of sources you can use. MartinDK 14:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed section Notable CM Campers, Counselors, Directors, and Friends

I have removed this material as unverifiable and unencyclopedic.

  • Nate and Edna Wasserman: founders and directors
  • Alan and Elaine Wasserman: camp directors
  • Glen and Dawn Klein: camp directors
  • Steve Kanefsky: camper, counselor, AD, and current camp director
  • Bob Bender: counselor and program director
  • Dennis "Koz" Kozloski: counselor and current waterfront director
  • Gene and Rose Flek: camp caretakers
  • Jim "Buzz" Wyeth: assistant director
  • David "Woody" Wood: current assistant director
  • Doris Walkowksi: long-time and beloved camp cook
  • Aaron May: Camp Cook, currently owns restaurant in Arizona
  • Terry Zmek: formerly Doris' assistant, current camp cook
  • Lee Libby: long-time camp tennis director
  • Marc Beerman: long-time camper, AD, and assistant director
  • Zac Wagman: long-time camper, counselor, and AD, current summer home adjoins camp
  • Sandy Cohen: former camper, current owner/director Camp Marimeta for Girls
  • Steve Ehrlich: camper and counselor, namesake of current Senior Twilight League Trophy
...and many others all deserve special mention. Also of note are long-time CMers and recent (if not current) counselors/associate directors: Kevin Jay Long ("SHLONG"), Teddy Roth, Barry Schwartz, David Schwartz, David Ehrlich, Peter Ehrlich, David Davidson, Zach Dann, Max Freed, Joe Klein (son of Glen and Dawn), Mike Sweet, AJ Sweet, Scott Marcus, Jon Sider, Sean Hennick, Jeremy Kohlenbrener, Dustin Bernstein, Zach Rothberg, Ross Festenstein, Jeff Toombs, Brian "Double Bizzle" Bulgatz, Jason Feldgreber, Koby Stern, Steven Zucker and Joe Kerwin, Danny "chaimo" Chaimovitz and many others including Mike Strycula...TAKE ME OUT???

Obviously, it's also prone to abuse. --Moonriddengirl 03:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC) I don't understand "Moonriddengirl."

Most, if not all, of this information is available on the camp's website, making it documented and therefore fair game. i don't understand how previous owners and directors of a summer camp are not allowed to be noted in an encyclopedia. 24.15.52.179 05:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)--confused user

There are several points here. As far as verifiability, perhaps I'm not looking in the right place, but I don't find any mention of "Brian "Double Bizzle" Bulgatz" or "Danny "chaimo" Chaimovitz" on the camp's website. Verifiability has to be complete--all, not most. But the primary issue is whether the information is encyclopedic. The people on the sublist who are important in the context of the camp history and verifiable can and should be included within the article, as they are. A separate list for them might also be appropriate, if redundant. But few of the others on the list are notable or contribute to an understanding of the topic by encyclopedia readers. It's not simply a matter of whether something is documented that makes it appropriate for Wikipedia. Of bearing here is What Wikipedia is Not, which notes, "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information; merely being true or informative does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia." While the contribution of the camp's cooks may be important to the daily function of the camp and may be worth a page within the company's website, it isn't a significant factor to the camp itself unless the camp's cooking is a subject of interest as noted by third-party sources. Finally, although this is a small point by comparison to the main issue, the language is unencyclopedic: "deserve special mention" is entirely appropriate for a website, but too biased for an encyclopedia. That could be cleaned up, but still wouldn't make most of this appropriate for inclusion. --Moonriddengirl 13:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Remove section: Program

Removing the Program section per Wikipedia is not a directory. This information is appropriate for a company website, but not an encyclopedia.

  • Big Ten Activities: coined by current director Kanefsky, the Big Ten is Menominee's "traditional" activity program, and currently involves six rotational periods that the campers personally choose
  • MCAA League Action: up until 2006, MCAA leagues took place only during first session, but now an expanded version with additional sporting events has been added for the entirety of camp. Veteran MBA, MISL, MFL, MHL, and MLB leagues were joined by new additions in virtually all program areas, including tennis, water sports, ping-pong, shuffle-board, the new CM Go-Karts, and many others.
  • British vs. American: traditional first session competition, involves events such as All Camp Squirt Gun Fight, British Bull-Dog, Creatively Acquire the Energy Source, and Message to Garcia
  • Trip Week: features trips a variety of age groups, including Copper Falls, canoe trips, the Wisconsin Dells, Minneapolis, and white water rafting
  • Twi-Light League: originally only second session, the 2006 program changes saw "TLL" taking place for eight weeks. The winning senior captains after the championship game take home the first session trophy and second session Steve Ehrlich trophies for the off season. Current holders are Senior Cabin members Ross Agrest (first session) and Phil Margolin (second session)
  • Ojibwa, Timberlane, Chi, and other inter-camp competitions: feature a variety of sporting events divided into agegroups
  • Kawaga Competition: the grand-daddy of CM's inter-camp competitions, features a first and second session competition in a variety of sports, most notably softball and the all-important Senior 16A game (Kawaga currently holds the most recent 3-2 win over CM in the 2006 game)
  • Green and White: CM's largest intra-camp comeptition, features three Senior Cabin overall captains and numerous events, including Vroom, Menominee Monopoly, the Sing, Midnight Manhunt, D-Day (added in 2006 after a Camper-Counselor Swap Day trial), and of course, the final Relay
  • Camper-Counselor Swap Day: a more recent addition, elected Senior Cabin members serve as director and assistant director, and other campers serve as counselors
  • The Way: headed by the CITs and Steve, not to be spoken about outside of the dog-leg
  • Fourth of July: typically accompanied by a banquet of steak and brats, followed by the traditional social with former sister camp Marimeta, including a counselor softball game and fireworks show
  • Last Day Brunch/Final Banquet: last day festivities abound with a late breakfast following a morning of TLL playoffs, finished off by a Final Banquet of steak, chicken kiev, and baked Alaska
  • The Mooning*: When the counselors unanimously moon the campers as they drive off on the busses on the final day of camp. It is usually accompanied by alot of giggles.

It is also, obviously, prone to vandalism. --Moonriddengirl 03:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)