Talk:Camera obscura

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[edit] Al-hazem

Could we suggest [it is indeed established] that creation of the camera obscura was accidental? I've seen descriptions concluding, from Al-Hazem's text, the dark room was known to him before he used it for the experiments on eclipse.

And as for the theory, the observation of the inverted image, there are also an account about a Chinese called Mo Ti and his observation of inverted image, a century before similar observations from Aristotle. (I donno a reference for this accounts yet)

It seems less of a [accidental] discovery, and more of a creativity.

Downtownee 10:22, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

If you look at Jagged 85's edits, he changes "persian scientist" to Iraqi and keeps pushing it. Obviously the previous edit of "dark pussy hole" is a troll, but I'm seriously doubting Jagged's NPOV stance or otherwise agenda free maintenance at this point.

Comparison link: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Camera_obscura&diff=188751796&oldid=188031134

Did Iraq exist in Al-Hazem's time? Shouldn't it be Mesopotamia?

Apepper (talk) 07:49, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The invention/creation of the Camera Oscura

Having gone over some books and sources over the Internet, it is important we mention Mo-Ti's and Aristotle's discovery of the camera oscura principle first, which dates prior to Al-Hasan's assembly of the princicples. This will help this article become more factual, detailed and useful to Wikipedia users. I will soon provide some links and ISBNs for sources we could use to accurately describe the discovery and creation with fair credits to the concerned people. Here is an extract:
"The earliest mention of this type of device was by the Chinese philosopher Mo-Ti (5th century BC). He formally recorded the creation of an inverted image formed by light rays passing through a pinhole into a darkened room. He called this darkened room a "collecting place" or the "locked treasure room."
Aristotle (384-322 BC) understood the optical principle of the camera obscura. He viewed the crescent shape of a partially eclipsed sun projected on the ground through the holes in a sieve, and the gaps between leaves of a plane tree.
The Islamic scholar and scientist Alhazen (Abu Ali al-Hasan Ibn al-Haitham) (c.965 - 1039) gave a full account of the principle including experiments with five lanterns outside a room with a small hole. "
link http://brightbytes.com/cosite/what.html
If I don't hear from anyone who is willing to collaborate, I will run through with you guys the proposed addition and then proceed to add the amendments myself. --Sina7 (Signature added by Downtownee)
Please do. My previous note concerned this matter. I'm delighted someone is going to take it over. I put my note before yours for the sake of being chronologically ordered while having related notes together. -- Downtownee 07:53, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seville

I believe there is one in seville, spain that gives a view of most of the city and all of the expo '92, it is called, "torre tavira". I don't dare edit the article but if anyone can verify then it should be added to the list of locations. 65.184.41.200 02:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latin word

Since the correct italian spelling is Camera oscura (without b), I'd redirect it to the correct spelling, unless in english it is used instead with the current spelling. In this case I'd add a redirect from Camera oscura. --Gianfranco

"Camera obscura" is correct in English. It's Latin, not Italian. --Zundark, Tuesday, April 9, 2002

Just a note: English is Germanic. Italian, is, a Latin language. --Downtownee 10:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More Camera Obscura

There are two other famous Camera obscuras - one in Wales and one in Santa Monica, California. And in the movie - A Matter of Life and Death Middle Street, Shere, Surrey, England, UK is the village seen through camera obscura.

[edit] Old painting masters

Wasn't there some consperacy theory that the old masters used these to make their paintings?

Yes, see David Hockney. It needs adding to this article. Justinc 22:28, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes there were. It is not considered a conspiracy though. One of the first uses of the new invention, photgraphy, esp. during 1850s, was its assistance to painters. There were a debate on if photography is indeed a distict form of art, and many of the first photogrpahers were either painters themselves or were commissioned to make up very complicated images used by painting masters as "sketches". One of these photographers was O. G. Rejlander. Also have a look at Henry P. Robinson, who held a view of the photography must follow aesthetic and scenery rules of the contemporary painting. Plus Hockney is not an "old" master! --Downtownee 10:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

You can buy a Camera Obscura at http://stores.ebay.com/Camera-Obscura-Lucida-Shop or http://camera-obscura-lucida-shop.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.251.149 (talk) 17:11, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Correct the misspelling

Strange, the main page has the incorrect spelling "Camera Onscura" but when I go to the edit section the correct "Camera obscura" is listed...oh well. I guess I can't change it. - John

[edit] Plural form

'Cameras obscura' is the proper plural form, not 'camera obscuras'. I've corrected the article. Future editors should keep this in mind. Kent Wang 18:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

This is not even correctly pedantic. Common usage has the plural 'camera obscuras', which is easily good enough. The correct plural form, never used by anyone at all, is 'cameras obscurae'.

Try camerae obscurae for the actual latin plural. "Cameras obscura" and "Camera obscuras" kind of make sense as an english plural, but mixing english and latin plural forms in "cameras obscurae" is just strange. FiggyBee 09:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The only plural form that appears in the OED is "camera obscuras", from Charles Hutton's Mathematical and Philosophical Dictionary of 1796. -- Dominus 15:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Google book search finds 26 citations for "cameras obscura" and 262 for "camera obscuras". -- Dominus 15:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vermeer

The article says there is considerable controversy over whether Vermeer and others used the camera obscura. But last night I saw a documentary on the BBC (Light Fantastic) where it was said that a precise date can be given when Vermeer switched fully to the camera obscura. Now there were some inaccuracies in the documentary but those were simplifications for 'the less educated viewer', so to say. But saying one can pinpoint a date is something different. Anyone know more? DirkvdM 06:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Resolution

The article said that a pinhole gives low resolution, which can be solved by using a lens. I don't see how this influences resolution (it does influence light-sensitivity, though), so I removed that. Resolution is a matter of how fine the grain is in a photocamera. The equivalent in the camera obscura would be how accurate the artist is, I suppose. DirkvdM 06:58, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

A formula can be found at pinhole camera#Selection of pinhole size. Anyway, a pinhole for this use gives neither brightness nor resolution. Meggar 03:12, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
resolution is not just a term relevant to film grain. it refers to how well an image resolves at the VP. If you've ever tried making a pinhole camera, and have used a huge hole, you will know that the circle of confusion becomes so great that the image is comprised of large circles, it is then said to have poor resolution. DavidP

[edit] removed this etymology

also known in Arabic as “qamara”, hence Latin camera

Since it isn't - "camera" is Latin for "chamber", and was long before the invention of the camera obscura. (See [1] for example) FiggyBee 09:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "A Muslim named Abu Ali Al-Hasan Ibn al-Haitham"

Regarding the sentence "A Muslim named Abu Ali Al-Hasan Ibn al-Haitham (965-1039 CE), known in the West as Al-Hazen...", what relevance to the article is it that he was a Muslim? There are plenty of other people referenced in the article, and there is no mention of their choice of belief. For example, the following people are mentioned: Willett & Patteson, Leonardo da Vinci, Johann Zahn, Johannes Vermeer, Johannes Kepler, Robert Boyle, Robert Hooke, Paul Sandby, Canaletto, Joshua Reynolds, Louis Daguerre and William Fox Talbot. These people have not been introduced by referring to their personal beliefs, so why is there need to mention Abu Ali Al-Hasan Ibn al-Haitham's? --203.10.224.59 06:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Muslim community, especially in Middle East as its origin, is intentionally and, through elementary education, unconsciously aware of a brotherhood among themselves called "umma." Hence many Muslims are used to indicate or show interest if someone is of their own religion. Your point, nevertheless, is right and it should be asked to be tolerated by Muslims if these kind of remarks are removed from the text. Downtownee 12:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serious Problems Regarding Abu Ali Al-Hasan Ibn al-Haitham

Whoever keeps adding/reverting the article should consider the following: Haitham was born in Cairo, not Iraq or Persia. He also is not the first person to make observations on this subject - The "inventors" are the Chinese, the Greeks furthered it, and the Copts, such as Haitham, contributed also. Haitham says himself that he did not invent this. There are plenty of other references on Wikipedia to preexisting camera obscura. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.150.11.25 (talk) 20:25, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Internal conflict

Hello,

I might be missing something here, but "The first mention and discovery of the principals behind camera obscura belong to Mozi (470 BCE to 390 BCE)" and then "A Persian (of Arab background) scientist named Abu Ali Al-Hasan Ibn al-Haitham, born in Basra (965-1039 [B]CE) [studied the phenomena/system]"

This would appear to indicate that al-Haitham had the first thing that might be called a camera obscura? At the least it jumps the timeline around a little. User A1 (talk) 08:44, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

What Mozi and Aristotle described were the principles of a pinhole camera. What Ibn al-Haytham described was a camera obscura ("dark chamber"). Jagged 85 (talk) 22:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Jagged 85 clearly has an agenda here or knows nothing about photography. More to the point it's pretty gross you keep using the term "iraqi". I don't refer to Native American tribes which ones existed in the USA as "New Jerseyian". Since you're paying more attention to the wording "iraqi" then you are interested in reconciling the technological differences between the observations Aristotle made and Mozi I'm going to call you on bullshit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.150.11.25 (talk) 21:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)