Talk:Cambodian Civil War

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Good article Cambodian Civil War has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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This article is about a person, place, or concept whose name is originally rendered in the Khmer script; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Khmer script.
  • In addition, depending on the subject matter, the name may also need to be rendered in other local languages, such as Cham or Thai, and help of this nature is greatly appreciated and most welcomed.


Contents

[edit] US involvement

Excuse me but how the hell is the US opposed to the Khmer Rouge? Fact is the US supported the Khmer rouge both financialy and by using bombers to atack the vietnamese when they atacked the Khmer Rouge.

This article should be divided:

Khmer Republic 1 Side. // USA/South Vietnam+Khmer Rouge 2nd Side // Socialist Vietnam 3rd Side // —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.100.111.208 (talk) 00:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Editing

This article is currently undergoing a heavy re-write and expansion. If you have any "talk", please leave it at the top of the page under this bloc. This will allow me to address current questions etc instead of having to go all the way to the bottom of the page. Just convenient. RM Gillespie 20:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Old Editing

I question the neutrality of the article on two counts. One is that after the coup, Sihanouk was in the custody and at the mercy of the Chinese government. Perhaps, as the article claims, his actions were short-sighted. But perhaps it was cooperation with the Chinese and their Khmer Rouge clients was his best option, both for his country and for his personal physical safety.

Your statement that Sihanouk was in the "custody" and "at the mercy" of the Chinese would need to be supported with facts. Every source I know of shows that he was in no way ever forced by the Chinese to do anything. Quite the opposite, the Chinese put pressure on the Khmer Rouge to mollify Sihanouk.

Secondly, Lon Nol's coup is treated as an entirely indigenous event. I don't have the citations to prove otherwise, but I have read that it was encouraged by the US because the Nixon Administration was dissatisfied with Sihanouk's inability (or unwillingmenss, as the US saw it) to close down the Ho Chi Minh Trail.

That is speculation rather than fact.


Taken together, these two omissions lead to an unduly negative view of Sihanouk's role and a a side-stepping of the US's role in creating the conditions that allowed the Khmer Rouge atrocities. Dvd Avins 16:16, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Sihanouk is not a positive figure. The reality of Cambodia in the 1960s was that Sihanouk oversaw a dicatatorship where his opponents on the left were murdered and there was no freedom of the press at all. A wave of arrests ordered by Sihanouk in the early 1960s of leftests put Pol Pot in charge of the Khmer Rouge because most of those senior to him were either dead or under arrest. Another wave of repression in the 1960s sent the people who would form the base of the Khmer Rouge into the countryside. The civil war in Cambodia began three years before Sihanouk was removed from office. Sihanouk's government oversaw atrocities long before he was forced out. If you want to portray him as a positive figure, please present your reasoning in terms of the history of Cambodia in the 1960s.
There is a particular set of POV that wants to present Sihanouk as a beloved great man who ruled over happy neutral Cambodia until the evil americans drove him from power. Then the evil americans bombed the "simple" people of Cambodia and turned them into ruthless Khmer Rouge fighters whose actions were not their fault. That POV will not be allowed in the article.

Surely this needs to be wikified and brought into line with the Second Indochina War and the Cold War? Cripipper 10:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

First, you need to be honest and state that you wish to bring it into line with your personal edits to Second Indochina War and the Cold War. While the pages need to be reconcilied, that will not be done on your terms and exclusively from your POV. You also need to present credible sources. That means, for example, people who were present in Cambodia rather than westerners observing Cambodia and making psychological theories about what happened.

It also needs expanded to explain the events of the Civil War from June 1970 to the fall of Phnom Penh. Cripipper 11:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll take a look at doing that. 168.127.0.51 16:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV problems corrected

I've corrected the following problems in the article today:

1) POV attempts to insert the Sihanouk viewpoint of events in 1970 have been made neutral. 2) Saying that the Cambodian army was "outclassed in training and leadership" is an opinion made without support and POV because it implies the other side was somehow "better". 3) Calling the majority of the officers of the Cambodian Army Corrupt and Incompetent is clear POV. 4) "The KCP's debt to the North Vietnamese after March 1970 was one that Pol Pot was loath to acknowledge". Clear POV. 5) "the revolutionary struggle" - The wording takes sides "struggle" is POV. 6) Arclight is used in a completely wrong sense. B-52 strikes being mentioned is enough. 7) The comparison of the bomb tonnage dropped to that dropped in another war is POV. You can mention the amount of bombs dropped but not use other wars to make political points about the bombing. 8) The bombing numbers listed have no sources associated with them. Either find sources or leave them out. Saying the CIA estimated 600k deaths needs a source before it can appear. 9) "drove the Cambodian people into the arms of the Khmer Rouge". Making the claim that bombing created the Khmer Rouge or increased its popularity is unsupported POV. The Khmer Rouge insurgency started under Sihanouk years before any bombing occurred. 10) Shawcross is not a valid source for the claims being made. He was not a direct witness to the events and his unsupported opinions do not deserve in the article. He certainly cannot substaitiate the excuse being offered that the Khmer Rouge were not responsible for their own actions. 11) Saying that the bombing was the most controversial aspect without providing any basis for making that claim is incorrect. 12) "From the Khmer Rouge perspective, however, the severity of the bombings was matched by the treachery of the North Vietnamese." Clear POV. Putting Khmer Rouge political propaganda against Vietnam into the page is unacceptable. The paragraph makes no sense. The Khmer Rouge didn't stop fighting and won. Where is the treachery?

[edit] Anybody know anything about Cheng Heng?

Does anybody know what happened to Cheng Heng, former President of the National Assembly and (according to one timeline) nominal Head of State after the 1970 coup? He arrived in Milwaukee as a refugee May 31 1975 with 13 members of his family. I've found online mentions that he was one of those marked for death by the Khmer Rouge, and others that say he left the U.S. in 1992, and died in March of 1996. Anybody know whether he stayed in Milwaukee or Wisconsin, what he did with himself, whether he went back to Cambodia or ?, where he died? He doesn't even have a sketchy token article here right now.--Orange Mike 22:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment

Looking good, but needs a longer lead and thorough copyediting for tone (comments like "It was a sad portent of evil days to come." aren't really appropriate to an encyclopedia article). Kirill Lokshin 02:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section names

  1. 4.1 Same War, Different Year
  2. 4.2 Whispers in the Night

I think we need to rename these two sections: they do not give the reader looking at the contents box any clue about their content. Cripipper 13:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification requests, part 1

  1. In the section The Overthrow of Sihanouk, 1970: The Lon Nol Coup, the following sentence needs clarification: "On the 12th, the prime minister closed the port of Sihanoukville to the North Vietnamese and issued an impossible ultimatum to them." The section does not give month or year. I might guess that this refers to March 12, 1970, but that cannot be gleaned from the paragraph/article.
  2. In the section The Overthrow of Sihanouk, 1970:The Vietnamese Massacres , third paragraph — "not even those of the Bhuddist community" (bold mine). Do you mean "Buddhist"?
  3. In the section The Widening War, 1970-1971:The Opposing Sides, third paragraph — "During the 1974-1975 period, FANK forces would grow from 100,000 to approximately 250,000 men (probably one-third of whom either did not exist or had deserted)." — the wording is confusing. How can force be of a particular size but consist of non-existent people? Does the sentence really mean that the forces offically numbered 250,000, but the number was probably closer to ?180,000? due to desertion and ......? Alternative wording — "FANK rolls"?

— ERcheck (talk) 06:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

ERcheck - you are the man! For the first time in 15 written articles a reader (or commentor) actually responds with some really valuable criticism. God bless you!. I will get right on your suggestions. RM Gillespie 22:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarifications request, part 2

  1. In Agony of the Khmer Republic, 1972-1975:Struggling to Survive section, first paragraph, second sentence is unclear: "Limited offensives were to launched to maintain contact with the rice-growing regions of the northwest and along the Mekong River and Route 5, the Republic's overland connection to the south." Should it read "Limited offensives were launched to maintain..." ... which still is unclear.
  2. Next sentence.... "those lines".... unclear which lines. Does this mean the Mekong River and Route 5 as supply lines? As communication lines?
  3. Footnote in paragraph 2 "The Editors of the Boston Publishing Company" as author? Is this book from the The Vietnam Experience book series? Is it ISBN 0939526387?
  4. Last paragraph in the section: "By the end of the year" .... and "Shortly after Christmas". What year are we in? 1973? 1974 or 1975? As each section may cover multiple years, the reader can lose track of the year/the year may be unclear from the text. In this paragraph, I suggest — "By the end of 19xx, ...." and "Shortly after Christmas 19xx,..." \
  5. In the Agony of the Khmer Republic, 1972-1975:Fall of Phnom Penh section, 5th paragraph, last sentence is unclear. "They chose to share the fate of their people (and all of whom were later executed by the Khmer Rouge)." Do you mean that the group — Sirik Matak, Long Boret, Lon Non (Lon Nol's brother), and most members of Lon Nol's cabinet — were all executed? As it reads, it implies that "their people" were executed... Please re-write.

— ERcheck (talk) 02:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Done and done. RM Gillespie 15:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just a thought

From the point of view of Cambodia, if the civil war ended in '75, then what do we call the conflict that continued from 1979 until 1998? I've seen the term used both to describe the pre KR period and the 20 odd years of civil conflict after it. Any thoughts? Paxse 17:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

  • An interesting (and as yet unresolved) question that is made all the more complex due to the actions of the Vietnamese and Chinese. Was the government established by the Vietnamese in Phnom Penh to be considered legitimate, or (as the U.S. considered it) as a puppet government? Are the Vietnamese counterinsurgency operations within Cambodia between 1979 and 1989 internal or external military operations? Was the Vietnamese-supported Movement for Khmer National Liberation a legitimate insurgency against the Khmer Rouge or a creation of the Vietnamese? How is one to regard the Sihanouk-created Confederation of the Khmer Nation, which opposed both the Khmer Rouge and the Vietnamese-backed Kampuchean regime (and which later joined forces with the Khmer Rouge)?

A war against external aggression or a civil war? This one can of worms that begs for clarification. The Vietnamese as liberators responding to numerous attacks on their national territory or as villains only out to establish a friendly puppet state? The Khmer Rouge as the murderous bastards that they were or as freedom fighters? RM Gillespie 13:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article?

Should it go through the test? It is already an A...WEBURIEDOURSECRETSINTHEGARDENwe need to talk.• 15:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:GenLonNol.jpg

Image:GenLonNol.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

WP:Good article usage is a survey of the language and style of Wikipedia editors in articles being reviewed for Good article nomination. It will help make the experience of writing Good Articles as non-threatening and satisfying as possible if all the participating editors would take a moment to answer a few questions for us, in this section please. The survey will end on April 30.

  • Would you like any additional feedback on the writing style in this article?


  • If you write a lot outside of Wikipedia, what kind of writing do you do?


  • Is your writing style influenced by any particular WikiProject or other group on Wikipedia?


At any point during this review, let us know if we recommend any edits, including markup, punctuation and language, that you feel don't fit with your writing style. Thanks for your time. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 03:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria) (see here for this contributor's history of GA reviews)
  1. It is reasonably well written:
    Pass no problems there.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable:
    Pass plenty of sources.
  3. It is broad in its coverage:
    Pass very well done there, too.
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy:
    Pass
  5. It is stable:
    Pass
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate:
    Pass ample illustration.
  7. Overall:
    Pass An exceptional article, which is a sho-in for GA in my opinion. Well done! -Ed!(talk)(Hall of Fame) 01:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)