Talk:Calvary
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[edit] General Comments
where's the link to the article describing the hill?
Κρανιου Τοπος (Kraniou Topos) means "place of [the] skull" in Greek, not simply "skull."
I was under the impression that Golgotha was the hill where David placed Goliath's head. See 1Samuel 17:54. I would imagine a giant's head would make a profound impression on the Israelites. Enough so as to name the hill where it rested "the place of THE skull". Not just any skull, but a very large skull, the skull of a giant, Goliath. David stood in faith as God's warrior, a type of Christ. In 1Samuel 17:5, the Bible says that Goliath "had a bronze helmet on his head and he was clothed with scaled body armor..." Like the snake he represents, he is killed in the head, a type of death planned for the real serpent as predicted in Genesis 3:15. The geological, historical, and anthropological interest in the area over the centuries has surely eradicated any proof we may want to find. As you said, the real death of a real Savior and His real resurection to return soon is the most important information of all. It is a fact, however, that attacks against the Bible are increasing. Many are looking to disprove it so they can go about doing as they wish without fear of retribution. We must be ever vigilant to answer these disputes with the infalible Word of God. Proving God's Word through the sciences is indeed a high calling.
[edit] General Gordon
From the page on General Gordon, he was in Palestine 1882-83, and in Khartoum from February 1884 until his death in January 1885. Searching the internet, I find dates for Gordon's theory of 1883, 1884, 1885 and 1894 (!). [I wonder if, say, his theories were published after his death ?] -- Beardo 06:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Does anyone have thoughts regarding adding a little bit more detail about Gordon? I wonder if it should be made more clear that his claims, although striking the fancy of some, do not carry any academic weight whatsoever.
- (E.G. “...of the BA, a decorated Major-General in the British army, with no known education or expertise in history or anthropology...”.)
- LCP 15:42, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Authenticity
I am going to remove the "citation needed" regarding historians' belief that it is authentic, based upon this site: [1] Particularly: this quote from scholar Dan Bahat: "We may not be absolutely certain that the site of the Holy Sepulchre Church is the site of Jesus' burial, but we have no other site that can lay a claim nearly as weighty, and we really have no reason to reject the authenticity of the site." (Bahat, 1986)TheThinWhiteDuke 04:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Spammy Links Removed
I have just checked the external links for this article. The first four linked pages appear to contain useful information and/or appropriate photos. But the last two seemed to have little relevance and looked spammy, so I have removed them.
Also, the third external link ("Location of Golgotha") contains a lot of information that isn't in the wiki article, plus a good map. This site could be a valuable reference for anyone who wants to add more content to the wiki article.
[edit] Problems with the lead
The following is passage from the lead is problematic for several reasons. Here is the problematic text:
- The hill is described as outside Jerusalem, but its location is not certain. [citation needed] Calvariae Locus in Latin, Κρανιου Τοπος (Kraniou Topos) in Greek and Gûlgaltâ in Aramaic all mean 'place of [the] skull', referring to a hill or plateau containing a pile of skulls, or to a geographic feature resembling a skull, or, as in some traditions, the location of the skull of Adam.
(1) Antiquity is unequivocal about the location of the site. As far as I know, there are no serious grounds from which to doubt the location that has been handed down to us, especially since the ideas of Gordon have already been refuted. The statement needs to be removed or cited. (2) The statement about the meanings of the "Golgotha" in Latin and Aramaic are written as if they are etymologies, and yet the last part of the sentence has nothing to do with etymology, but instead speaks of a tradition. There is also no mention of the fact that the title might be metaphorical. To fix this, the etymologies need a citation. If it is true that the title might have been intended metaphorical, this needs to be added in addition to the etymologies along side the explanation of the tradition regarding the skull of Adam. LCP 17:54, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- I made chages several days ago to amend the problems I list above.LCP 15:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
- Please, anyone, define "antiquity" for the purposes of this article. 74.130.20.255 (talk) 22:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Sources
I have again removed this: Eyewitness-reports about the location of Calvary: as an in-line source.
The link in question is to the discussion page in the German version of Wikipedia. Per WP:OR (emphasis added):
"Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources {...} Tertiary sources are publications, such as encyclopedias, that sum up other secondary sources, and sometimes primary sources. (Wikipedia itself is a tertiary source.) {...} All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources."
Using a wiki as a source for a wiki creates serious problems. What if next the de.wikipedia uses en.wikipedia as its source? A cites B which sites A, making it its own source! Mdbrownmsw 16:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- I have re-removed this item. It has been returned twice by an anonymous user with a varying IP addy. One more and I'll take this to RfC.
- I welcome comments on this issue. There are numerous sources hidden in the page (as comments) with similar problems.
- Mdbrownmsw 14:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
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- I support you in trying to eradicate the problem. Perhaps protection against new users, as on the Abortion pages, is the solution.LCP 14:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
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- For the moment, I think blocking edits by new users is a bit too blunt an instrument for this issue. While it would -- temporarily at least -- prevent returning the material, it would NOT clarify the situation for the person who keeps returning the text (who seems to be unaware that there is any problem with the material. Mdbrownmsw 13:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Cross section
this article crosses the objective/subjective barrier, & as an encyclopedia article it should not. Embedded in its words is an ongoing argument attempting to sotto voce establish the "truth" of the Christian religion as a factual thing. It might be fixable with a bunch of small changes, but it doesn't pass my muster as is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.190.20.182 (talk) 10:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Diagram done
its svg, so its fully vector editable, based on the one provided in french by Guilhem D. Guilhem, removed the subjective/controversial statements leaving historical facts
im removing the diagram request
cheers
in fully ecumenical brotherhood your buddhist wikipedian Yupi666 (talk) 19:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- I've renamed Image:Goglgotha.svg as Image:Golgotha cross-section.svg since it was tagged {{ifr}} JGHowes talk - 13:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] The actual rock is lost!
After the basilica burned down in 1802 or 1803, the orthodox church had the 2 x 2 x 2 meter top rock (having the actual hole in it for the Holy Cross) cut out from the main rock mass. The relic was loaded onto a sailing ship to have it moved to Istanbul, but the ship sunk halfway into the trip.
The incident is properly documented in the Lloyd's archives and Mr. Ballard has considered trying to locate the relic, but did not act on it so far. It would be pretty neat if this was not forgotten, there is plenty of time to find and salvage it until 2033, so it could be present during the 2000th year celebrations of the Redemption. 91.83.19.148 (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
