Talk:Caller (dancing)

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[edit] I've Expanded the Article

I decided to go ahead and write about this, since I have a decent knowledge of the subject. Please feel free to discuss problems you see, fix grammatical mistakes, comment on hard to follow passages, or whatever else may need some attention.

Also, feel free to expound upon what I've written. I know my history could use some more work and some sources.

Lareon 09:33, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed text from article

You're right the history section needs serious work. I have removed it from the article because, I believe, it is a lot of conjecture. It certainly doesn't jive with what I've read on the subject, and goes contrary to information found in referenced articles, for example country dance originating in frontier towns. I would suggest that the country dance section of the folk dance article is read carefully.

I would also suggest that careful citing of references in this history section will make it a lot better. What happened to the role of the "dance master", and of "recorded music"? These are both important aspects of the caller's history.

It's a little too hit-and-miss for my taste. --SFDan 17:44, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History

The role of the dance caller or cuer came out of necessity, given the origins of folk dance in America, but also in various cultures throughout the world.

In America, you can find many examples throughout history of frontier towns (where country dance originated) having people with traditions and dance styles from all over the world. It was customary for people, when they finished work for the day, or when the week was over, to relax and go to a community dance event. Everyone from town came.

Having people, however, from all sorts of different cultures caused problems. People from one culture would know a certain type of music, or certain steps; and while there was some overlap in a few cases, the different steps were very confusing to those who didn't know the dances. Also confusing was the fact that even in the case of overlap between cultures, the steps had differing names.

Thus, the country dance caller was created out of necessity. Rather than only the dances they knew from each caller, someone was called upon (or more often just came about in an effort to help everyone have a good time) who learned the dances and steps of everyone, and each town created their own list of dance steps.

As towns expanded, and people travelled, these new callers (named such because they called out what you were to do next in each dance) were able to learn from each other and each other's styles to the point where, modernly, there is a full Callerlab devoted to maintaining a list of proper square dance calls, integrating new calls and styles of dance, and generally supporting and promoting new ideas in square dance calling, as well as up-and-coming callers.

[edit] Quite Right, Thanks

You're very right. It felt like it needed a history segment, but no, I have not done much research, so I thank you for your modifications. I know a fair amount about modern square dance in America, and so was able to provide decent information on modern stuff. If I get a chance, I'll try to find out more about the history of callers, and add that in to this article.

I am however curious what you are referring to with the importance of recorded music as a caller? Most callers I've known are just as able to call to live music versus recorded music... (though it's often considered a treat to call to live music ^_^) Are you perhaps referring to pre-recorded singing calls? For the other comments, when I said "frontier" towns, I was referring to whatever towns were on the frontier of civilization at that time, which in the late 1700s would have been most of the eastern coast of the united states. Probably a better way to refer to this, however.

Beyond that, I see little which conflicts with or could help to elicidate what I wrote previously. As for the role of a "dance master", I believe this to likely be an older title for a caller, though I am unfamiliar with it. Most of the information I have was given to me through callers, and not through writings; I will of course seek out some writings (as I said) when I have more time. Again, thanks for the call to attention.

Okay, I went back and looked at "Cowboy Dances" (which I've read before, just forgot), and you're very right. I'll rewrite the history section soon, and include citings from at least that text. There's a book from Cal Campbell which may have some more information in it as well.

Thanks again, Lareon 10:11, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Moved text from western square dance article to this one

I moved some of the text I deleted in the western square dance article to this one, as being more appropriate. I did not, however, move any of the text written under the subhead "Calling a square dance", as I felt it was unusable and written from the absolutely wrong viewpoint. --SFDan 09:56, 26 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Article focus

I found the contents in this article regarding calling and cueing very well-written and information; however, the first sentence of the article makes some claims about describing "callers" for a number of different dance types, and then the article proceeds to neglect them and discuss only modern Western square dancing and round dancing. The fact that "cuers" are discussed in the "caller" article is a little strange, as well, even though they are related. I think the intro to the article should be redone to make it clear what callers and cuers are being discussed, and (if needed) stubs should be added for the types of callers which are not (currently) discussed.

I'll make a shot at doing this. C. Scott Ananian 16:02, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

The article does not make claim to describe callers for a number of different dance types. It simply states that they exist, and names various types. Focus has been placed on modern Western square dance callers, because that is where the expertise has been and the interest. There is plenty of room for expansion in regards cuers, and other types of callers or cuers. If you feel that you have something to add to these "neglected" areas, please you are more than welcome to add content. And if you feel that cuers do not fit in with this article's focus, or defuse it, I would have absolutely no objection to that part of the article being split off into a separate article. --SFDan 16:33, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

My primary objection was that "caller" was frequently used in statements which really only described modern Western square dance callers, not callers of traditional square dance nor presumably to callers of non-square dance. What do you think of the present organization? I think it should provide some structure so that someone who knows more than we do about (say) country western line dancing or Salsa Rueda could add an appropriate section describing these callers. C. Scott Ananian 16:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

If you want to add additional structure to the article for other types of callers and cuers, go ahead. I would suggest that you set up subheads, perhaps give a one sentence statement as a lead-in, and put a subhead section stub {{sectstub}} into each section. You might also put a little notice on the talk page for each article that the section concerns, stating that editing help would be appreciated for these subsections. I would also suggest using the same order of sections as listed in the opening sentence.
Beyond that, I would say that the section on MWSD caller should be split off into its own article, and just a bare necessity is left in this article. The article is getting too long, in my opinion, especially if there is additional content. --SFDan 04:29, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Latest revision

Notes about my latest revision, and rationale

  • Changed throughout “modern western square dance” to “western square dance”, as it is the most common name according to a Google search 1,490 to 518. Dosado.com, the largest square dance portal, calls it “western square dance”. Callerlab uses only the term “square dance”. The article itself in Wikipedia is called “western square dance” (and it should be called that).
  • I removed a lot of stuff about calling from cards or improvising, and other things of that ilk which have to do with choreographic management. This article is about the caller. It needs to talk to normal people, not those in the know. It is not really appropriate here, in my opinion, except at a very high level.
  • Again I removed reference to Stan Winchester (or in my book, Stan Who?chester). Google search on "Stan Winchester" "square dance" gave 1 hit, and that led to a promo for a dance held by Tech Squares (isn’t that the group you promote?). Dosado.com does not list him as a caller, and neither does Vic Cedar's site. Stan Winchester may do something extremely popular where you live, and may do something different and unusual, but in regards a Caller article— is he significant, characteristic, or noteworthy. No way. What next give an article for the one caller who does singing calls in Urdu? Or yodel calls? Or to operatic arias? Perhaps in a different article, such as the new Challenge square dance article. Maybe there he would be noteworthy.
  • As for the programming section, I removed the choreographic stuff out and got some information about programming in.

Oops, I forgot to sign --SFDan 11:59, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you ask an upper-level challenge dancer who Stan Winchester is. He has been dead several years, which is why you did not find him among currently-active callers, and his widow has not given commercial permission to release his tapes. However, he is truely one of the great singing callers -- please get another opinion on this. I believe the reason why you found the Tech Squares link is simply that Tech Squares has had a C3/C4 tape group operating continuously on campus for the past 20 years -- and I am not a member of this group, so I don't have a particular horse in this race.
Clark Baker has now put together a page with a lot of information about Stan Winchester's singing calls: [1]. It would be good to include some of this information -- I think you are right, it should go in the "Challenge Dancing" article, and perhaps the text "singers at the highest challenge levels" could discretely link to the appropriate section of that article. C. Scott Ananian 00:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
You have added a lot of interesting material, but I suppose my idea of what makes for a good article is different than what you think makes for a good article. I think of this article as a basic encyclopedia article about what a caller is and what a caller does. As regards a (modern) western square dance caller I think that under the circumstances where we are also having other callers and cuers in the same article, we should not get too deep into details. After all, these other sections aren't even being written yet (for the most part). It should be somewhat balanced. As it is I feel that the MWSD caller section is too long in this perspective, and should be split off. When (and if) if is split off, then a more detailed article about the caller would (in my opinion) be more fitting. --SFDan 17:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't believe a google search is a reasonable way to decide between "modern Western" versus "Western" square dance. The goal we're after is good distinction between traditional and modern dance. The word "Western" is not specific to modern square dance; if you read Callerlab's history page (for example) you'll note that "western square dance" is what Lloyd Shaw documented, which is different from what we today call "modern western square dance". The word "western" does not by itself mean much -- why is traditional square dancing not western? It is clarity I am after.
If its clarity you want, then I suggest you move the article from the name "Western square dance" to "Modern western square dance", and change links to the article as well. I would also suggest that you explain all of what you wrote above in the article, not just to me-- explain it to the reader! Perhaps a good place would be in the history section that I just set up, but also right at the start too, a brief explanation. It sounds like a natural place for this sort of explanation. --SFDan 17:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Our experience in dancing seems to differ quite a bit. I feel we should be working together to document the union, instead of ruthlessly trimming to the intersection. Who benefits from that? C. Scott Ananian 16:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Getting there!

OK, I'm pretty happy with this article as it stands now; I made some small changes I hope you will not object to. Stan Winchester deserves an article of his own, but as I am not myself an upper-level challenge dancer, and don't actually know enough of his history, I am not the person to do it. I have left the reference and link out for the moment; perhaps someday someone who knows the subject better can write a proper article.

I would be more than happy to do the "western" to "modern western" change globally, but I'd like to be sure we have consensus, first. Would you mind if I did this, also taking your suggestion to document my reasons for so doing at the top of the Modern Western square dance article?

I'd suggest a good start for the history section might be found at the 'history' page of callerlab's web site, although there's some good text (albeit unsourced) above, too (IIRC).

I agree the MWSD caller article could be split off, but I don't feel it is long enough yet -- also, there's not enough content on the other caller types. We would probably need an explanation box ala Square dance if we do split it off, to keep people from wondering where MWSD is. C. Scott Ananian 18:04, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I have no probelm with an article name change from "western square dance" to "modern western square dance", and appropriate text changes to match. I think that "western square dance" should still be listed in the opening sentence as one of the alternative names (many people do refer to it as that). I think that a simple sentence along the lines of, "western square dance,for some, s synonymous with cowboy dance or traditional western dance. Therefore, "modern western square dance" is a more appropriate name for the current style of non-historic dance that grew out of traditional western dance." Something along these lines, at least sorr of quick explanation at the start would be OK. It could get more detailed in a history section showing how the traditional cowboy dance led into modern square dance.
Your ideas for history start sound fine. Go for it. I am sure that I will get into it too along the way.
I agree that there is no rush to split off MWSD caller article. However, if and when we want to get more technical and detailed then I think it would be a good time to do so. I think that when the article is split off, it would be sufficient to summarize the crux of the MWSD square dance caller article, as it relates to this one (how it compares, basic what it is), and put in a simple one liner (as in many other places in Wiki), right after the subhead and before the text, as follows (or whatever the title will be):
Main article: Caller (MWSD)

OK, article name change complete. In the process I found some more old links which could be updated to Square dance program or Challenge square dance, so I did so. C. Scott Ananian 20:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for a great job, and for being a good co-author. I'll wish you a good weekend, as I am off to Aalborg for a square dance tomorrow. --SFDan 20:53, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Call Types

I think the explanation of patter and hothash is incorrect seeing as how I have always heard and experienced them being used is hothash and patter can both be prewrittren and can both be improvised and hothash is a style of patter which is supposed to be faster and more complex or challenging than patter as a whole. Shimonnyman 08:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)