Talk:Callaloo

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[edit] Merging

I believe that "callaloo" and "calaloo" are merely spelling variations. The situation is somewhat complicated by the fact that the word can mean either the soup or the main leaf vegetable ingredient, and further complicated by the fact that the leaf vegetable ingredient can be either amaranth, taro, or malanga. Calaloo concentrates on the vegetable, while Callaloo concentrates on the soup, but I don't believe that the spelling difference makes this distinction. We already have quite decent articles on the leaf vegetables, so I think these two articles should be merged into a single soup article, at the more common spelling ("callaloo" according to Google), and any detailed leaf vegetable material be moved to the individual leaf vegetable articles. — Pekinensis 19:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know, they are just spelling variations. These articles should be merged. --Gruepig 20:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Done — Pekinensis 00:47, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your contribution, but I must object. I worked rather hard to first rewrite the leaf vegetable material so that it made sense, and then move it to the appropriate articles, as discussed above. Why did you replace it, and why did you use the original, muddled form?

Point by point why I dislike the original version: Amaranth and taro are two radically different plants, whose only point in common is that they are used in this dish. Neither is particularly similar to spinach, aside from being a leaf vegetable. Neither is of Caribbean origin. The reintroduced text first claims it is talking about both amaranth and taro, but then gives a list of synonyms and nutrition data which apply only to amaranth (and are already covered more accurately and in greater detail in the amaranth article). Amaranth is the common name; if the scientific name "amaranthus" is to be used, it should be in italics. Taro is a much more widely used name for what is called here dasheen. If the names dasheen and eddo are appropriate because they are used locally (which is not clear, since evidently the plant is also locally called "callaloo") that should be noted explicitly, and the commonly understood name given as well. I also find the external links to be of low quality.

I realize that you made other, useful changes at the same time as reinserting the text, and those should be kept, but I have reverted your changes pending further discussion. I do not mean to be harsh; I believe that both of us want what's best for the article. Let us work together. Really.

— Pekinensis 15:57, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

That's fine. I don't feel too strongly about the article. My attempt in merging the existing content was to make it clear that the article now covers both the plant and the dish.
I agree that amaranth and taro are very different plants, and that this needs clarification. (Most notably, I think taro is harmful when eaten raw but amaranth is not?) I also suspected they weren't of Caribbean origin, but I didn't find a source otherwise so I left the material from the existing articles; by all means, remove this. (Although perhaps if it's not too much work you could revert back to my edit and remove/make changes from there?)
I agree that spinach is very different, but I think mentioning it is useful for comparison. More than once I have described callaloo to non-Caribbean people as a leafy green, and then have them say "oh, like lettuce?" which I really don't think is correct. Comparing it to spinach or kale seems to give people a better idea what to expect, at least in terms of cooking style and taste.
(As an aside, I've personally most frequently heard the leafs called callaloo colloquially, then dasheen more formally, and only rarely eddo. I've heard taro used to refer to the root or in the context of poi.)
--Gruepig 16:40, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I dereverted, and then took out the only parts I objected to, which were the plant section and the external links. Your rewrite of the dish section is a substantial improvement. Is this acceptable? — Pekinensis 16:08, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

No problem. This looks good.
I've left my response to your previous comment, since I had already written it, but I don't think it's particularly relevant anymore.
--Gruepig 16:40, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
A few comments
  • Amaranth is native to the Caribbean or a pre-Colombian introduction. It is considered native in Trinidad
  • Dasheen is not, of course.
  • Can you source the use of "callalo" for the leafy vegetatble? In Trinidad "Dasheen bush" is the name for the Dasheen leaf, while Amaranth is "bhaji". AFAIK, callalo is a Trinidadian word, so it seems strange that it is used for a vegetable elsewhere but not in Trinidad
  • "Malanga" is used as a common name, however, Xanthosoma is either Eddoes or Tannia in Trinidad. I don't think Malanga is used in Jamaica either. AFAIK it's a Spanish common name, so it makes no sense in this context.
  • What is the source for "coco" as a name for either Dasheen bush or bhaji? Not a name that I have heard, either in Trinidad or in English. Guettarda 16:10, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Interesting. I've heard callaloo for the leaves (as well as dasheen and dasheen bush) in the Virgin Islands. I have never heard coco either.
--Gruepig 16:40, 28 July 2005 (UTC)


Thank you for your comments.

  • I'm sorry; I should have softened my wording on amaranth. Amaranth is of nearly universal distribution, so it seemed overstated or unnotable to say it was of Caribbean origin.
  • "Callaloo" for the leafy vegetable came from the original calaloo article (assuming these are only spelling differences). I googled to find references from AllRecipes.com, the Trinidad Guardian, and Jamaicans.com.
  • I'm not sure which name would be appropriate, but eddoes is ambiguous, and should be explained if used.
  • I believe that "coco" is the Jamaican word for Xanthosoma spp. and possibly Colocasia, but not for Amaranthus. It is suggestively similar to the West African word "cocoyam", but I don't have a definitive source to connect them. See this list of edible aroids. I will try to find more sources.

— Pekinensis 16:20, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Interesting - I suppose I have to defer to Wendy Rahamut (since I believe that we are distantly related). I accept her as a credible source for Trini usage. As I said, not familiar with the usage, though of course when she says "callaloo bush" I am inclined to hear/read "dasheen bush". Anyway, I can't say too much about callaloo, since I have never managed to get it past my nose.
I was unaware that "pepperpot" was the same thing. Which makes me curious about the origins, since "pepperpot" was the meal of the Caribs - allegedly with human flesh added, from time to time. Guettarda 17:08, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I have reworded some of the vegetable name material, and added photos, trying to clarify some of these questions. What do you think? — Pekinensis 18:53, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Okra?

I'm confused by the picture of okra. Explain? --Gruepig 06:59, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

While you can put okro in callaloo, it's not primary. I restored the original images. Guettarda 07:08, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes.. the article states "Callaloo is almost always made with okra" so i changed those three small images with one small image. I don't mind the revert. I just thought maybe one image might look better than three on the page. sikander 18:16, 9 November 2005 (UTC)