Talk:California 4th Grade Mission Project
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California 4th Grade Mission Project has again survived Wikipedia:VFD. See: Talk:California 4th Grade Mission Project/Delete. -- Wile E. Heresiarch 07:58, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[edit] From WP:VFD
Template:VfD-California 4th Grade Mission Project Decision was to KEEP
Okay, I'm bringing this up again on vfd. I repeat my arguments: 1. This article is an orphan, and I can't see people being likely to search for this term 2. This article is not useful, not even to people actually working on the project 3. The project itself is non-notable
Also, no matter how many people chime in to add "I did this project", that's still not enough to prove it's a required project of all California 4th graders; whereas the fact that 2 people did NOT do this project goes a way to prove the opposite. In order to prove it's required of all students, one would have to give reference to a decision of the California Board of Education, or some such. But I repeat: WHO CARES? Whether or not the project is required of all California 4th graders, this stub is of no help to those 4th graders who ARE working on it.
Why keep this article? --Woggly 07:35, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Non Neutral Additions
Not being from California, I can't in good conscience just remove the last couple of added paragraphs, as I have no idea how the history of the missions are taught in 4th grade. I feel that information is more relevant if written in a more neutral fashion to California Missions. I'm hoping that someone from California who has done this project, can add more detail to the page and fix the obvious point of view problem. Sortior 14:39, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
- POV or not, this new rant should be Spanish Missions of California, if at all. It has nothing to do with 4th grade. But I'm done editing this page. --Woggly 18:44, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It should be noted that the author of the last two paragraphs of this article did participate in the California Indian Mission project. They learned that the missions were a great and noble venture. Upon taking a California Indian course the author, after eight years of believing the context of the project, became suddenly and starkly aware of the realities that took place in the missions. So many people for so long have been coerced into believing other than the truth that the Indians continue to suffer atrocities without anyone knowing fact. The fact that the author was unable to write the truth without being blamed for bias is a shame. It's about time that we realize this is not necessarily history but is currently taking place in the world around us. For an example I direct you to research the Winnemem Wintu, or any non-gaming California tribe to learn about their present standing with the California government. If you are an Indian losing land and being ignored by the federal government, as well as being used as a pawn is part of every day life
For the record, here is the material before I edited. I'm tryin to tone it down to something appropriate to this article. However, I think that a lot of this does belong in Spanish Missions of California, and I suggest trying to work it in there. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:03, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
- Many Indian cultures despise the act of making missions because often the missions are glorified as places that were great cultural centers for the California Indians. In actuality many Indians were forced to assimilate to Catholiscism in the missions. The California missions were also places of great cruelty, and torture. Of the baptized Indians in California it is estimated that 60% died of diseases brought over by the Spanish that they were not immuned to. Before first contact a low estimate holds that 310,000 Indians lived in California. After contact and the Gold Rush 15,000 Indians were alive in California.
- Rather than dying of horrible diseases, malnutrition and torture many Indians held revolts. They often killed Padres and destroyed missions to continue their original way of life. In the strongest revolt to date 800 of the Kumayaay Indians of Mission San Diego de Alcalá destroyed the San Diego mission and the surrounding land in 1775. It is often only in college when students take an Indian history class that they learn the real history of the missions.
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- And the bird goes tweet. Its not hard to realize that the indians felt severe demographic ramifications because of old world diseases, but instead of sitting here and bitching about how bad europeans are, we should look at it in the context of the times. To your first point, I do not see how revolting would preclude catching dieases, Wikipedia itself says that the mission indians were fed pretty well, and the torture you speak of did not seem to move past pillory.
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- Sure, the california missions were no jesuit-guarani reduction, but they were a whole lot better than the colonization of the west indies, mexico, and virtually all of the United States, especially California during the gold rush. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.181.221.224 (talk) 06:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] It is not always a model
My class got away w/ a report instead of building a model, and I did my report on the one in San Gabriel. --fpo 04:37, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
I did a report, too. ςפקιДИτς 02:45, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
