Talk:Cairns, Queensland

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Contents 1 Rainfall 2 List of Radio Stations 3 Car Hire resource 4 climate chart 5 Motorway? 6 Shopping? 7 Culture Section 8 Culture 9 Redbank Paragraph Reference deleted 10 Length Of Article (History section) 10.1 Expansion and Additions 10.2 Cairns History Timeline 10.3 Divided History 10.4 Relocated History 11 Pronunciation 12 Tagged Article 13 Cairns Population 14 Climate 15 Urban layout 16 statement in intro 17 Mount Bartle Frere

[edit] Rainfall

I believe that the rainfall totals were off based on the graph. I added up about 6000 mm, not 2222.9. Where was the source that said 2222.9? Smart194 16:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The source for 2222.9mm is from the BOM data for Cairns - Cairns PO where climate data was collected until 1957 and Cairns Airport where data is currently collected. 2222.9 is from the PO data the airport data average is 2002.8. The mean rainfall for Innisfail, which is a lot wetter than Cairns, is only 3559.1mm so 6000mm would appear to be incorrect. Mkfenn 23:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Radio Stations

I've had moved the poorly formatted list of radio stations from the bottom of the page to the communications section but I decided to get rid of it entirely. It looks ugly, and I don't see that it is necessary. Of the better articles about Australian cities, none contains a list of radio stations. In fact, featured articles should contain prose rather than lists. This article described the radio stations adequately in the Communications section before the list was added. Not even the Melbourne media article contains lists. I've pasted the list that I removed below. -- Adz|talk 04:15, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

List of Radio Stations:

• 4CA 102.7 FM (commercial)
• Sea FM 99.5 (commercial)
• Hot FM 103.5 (commercial)
• Kool FM 98.3 (commercial,Innisfail)
• 4EL 846 AM (commercial)
• Radio National 105.1 FM/93.9 FM
• JJJ 107.5 FM/97.1 FM
• ABC Far North QLD 801 AM/95.5 FM
• Classic FM 105.9 FM/94.7 FM
• 4CCR FM 89.1 (community)
• 104.3 FM (narrowcast)

[edit] Car Hire resource

I added car hire resource as many tourists visiting Cairns (due to its remoteness) will not have access to a vehicle whilst there

Unfortunately, wikipedia is not a travel guide, so I have removed the link. Regards, MartinRe 17:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] climate chart

The recently added climate chart is difficult to read. The resolution is poor - even when it is viewed as a large image - and is almost impossible to read when it appears as a small image. I think the information contained within it is useful, but perhaps it could be represented as a series of graphs. Perhaps on or two could appear on this page and the rest could be included in a separate article about the climate of Cairns. The information within the graphs would be better presented if sumarised in words and in a table similar to the one on the Brisbane page. What do others think? -- Adz|talk 00:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the chart is hard to read. I think something along the lines of the Brisbane table, which is the format the BOM use, would be good.-- Mkfenn 08:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

To that end...(based on Airport data) -- Mkfenn 10:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Climate Table

	Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec	Year
Mean daily maximum temperature (°C)	31.4	31.1	30.5	29.2	27.6	25.9	25.7	26.5	28.0	29.5	30.6	31.3	29.0
Mean daily minimum temperature (°C)	23.6	23.7	23.0	21.6	19.8	17.7	17.0	17.4	18.6	20.6	22.3	23.3	20.7
Mean total rainfall (mm)	386.6	453.0	420.3	197.7	93.2	46.5	28.7	27.9	34.6	39.6	94.4	180.4	2002.8
Mean number of rain days	17.8	19.1	19.1	17.8	13.6	9.6	8.8	8.1	7.6	8.0	10.1	13.7	153.4
Mean number of clear days	4.0	2.4	4.1	5.0	6.8	8.9	9.8	11.5	12.3	11.8	7.7	5.5	89.8
Mean number of cloudy days	15.8	17.5	16.3	13.8	12.5	10.0	9.8	7.6	5.7	5.3	7.4	11.7	133.4
Source: Bureau of Meteorology

Well done!! This looks great. Much more legible than the graphics. -- Adz|talk 10:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Motorway?

This comment about the motorway has come back. Can somebody confirmwhether the road is actually going to be built, and if so, what the timeframe for it is? I have edited the text a bit to make it read a little better but it would be good if somebody could varify. Also, what is meant by 'motorway'? Is it simply a road upgrade, or will it result in a full blown freeway with overpasses and exit ramps? Or will it just be like the captain Cook Highway along the northern beaches? (in which case, i don't think it deserves special mention as a motorway). -- Adz|talk 10:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I haven't heard of any plans for a motorway. Maybe someone needs to dig up some references for this one? -- Mkfenn 12:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no mention of a motorway in the FNQ 2010 Regional Plan -- Mkfenn 13:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The editor who made the edit about the motorway also made some very silly edits in other articles. I checked the street which the edit referred to and it doesn't exist in whereis.com.au, so I've deleted the paragraph about the motorway. -- Adz|talk 07:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

What he is reffering to is a strecth of the Bruce Highway that actually isn't Motorway, however, it is 3 lanes in each direction and it is a limited access road, but it is not a fully-fledged Motorway, Though however, the Kuranda Range road from Smithfield to Kuranda (up the range) is being duplicated to dual-carriageway and is also including interchanges and limited access ramps, but it isn't being called a Motorway. Gertzy 21 August 2006.

A picture of the stretch of the Limited Access part of the Bruce Highway is actually in the roads part of the article, but there has been no plan for a Motorway standard replacement of the existing Bruce Highway has not even been proposed yet, just duplication of some parts and upgrading to limited access dual-carriageway of 6 lanes, but no overpasses, interchanges etc. Gertzy

[edit] Shopping?

I'm not sure if the list of shopping centres is appropriate. What do others think? Mkfenn 20:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that if other cities get to have articles on their shopping centres that are notable, then why can't some regional cities. Gertzy 30th August 2006.

I agree that the same principles should apply to article about regional cities and larger cities, however I don't think that shopping centres are notable enough to be mentioned in the main article. Having had a look at Canberra, Adelaide, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth, I can't see any lists of shopping centres. I'd be in favour of removing the list. If other editors feel strongly about keeping it, perhaps a separate list article could be created (along the lines of the List of schools in Cairns article in the education section which I created after the list of schools in this article began getting a little out of hand). -- Adz|talk 06:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

That's what i thought. --Mkfenn 09:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Culture Section

I thought that the culture section needed a little more than 4 words before it appears in the main article so I've moved it here:

[edit] Culture

Alliance Francaise de Cairns

--Mkfenn 03:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Italic text My husband is an actual Cairns with history dating back to the 10th century. I am interested in reading about how it came to be that one of our brethren decided to name the city after himself. If one wishes please contact us at m2cairns@cox.net Thank You 72.200.116.21 10:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)Mike & Lyss Cairns==History Expansion==

I'm a third generation Cairns born resident. The following suggestion for an expansion of the history section is based on information found in "Tropication" a public domain document held in the archives of the Cairns Historical Society. Normally such information would be taken from already available published material but, unfortunately, there are no books covering the full length of Cairns history to access. The only serious attempt at a history, "Trinity Phoenix" was released in 1976 and, besides some echoed racism and a hard to read format which did not separate footnotes from the main text, the book glossed over the very important post 1945 period when Cairns reinvented itself as a tourist destination. Apart from that, in the 30 years since then, many important historical events have occured that should be mentioned. The detail chosen here was distilled mainly from "Tropication" and checked with the microfilm record of Cairns Post newspaper articles. The selection is not random. Eventually of course a comprehensive history of Cairns will be written but until then I think the following should help give an interesting overview.

........[Information now uploaded was originally quoted here]tobalwin 15:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This is really good information but I don't like the way it is presented. The "decades" format annoys me. The history section has now become very unweildy. Maybe the new information should be in a new entry (History of Cairns Timeline)and a short synopsis put in the history section. Also the article doesn't flow very well. It's more like a series of dot points than an encyclopaedia article. Also putting "too many references to mention here" should be removed and the references added in the same style as the rest of the article. Mkfenn 22:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I will delete the history sample in the discussion section as it is now uploaded.

The comment "the decade format annoys me" hardly seems "neutral" Any chance of an expansion with reference to Wikipedia guidelines? Whatever happened to "be bold'?

To me the decade format is a deliberate way of dividing the information up so its not so much a data dump slab. It also divides the history roughly into theme cycles which is sorta how it historically panned out, for Cairns anyhow. The original version gave a name to each ten year period, the pioneer cycle 1866 - 1875, the settlement cycle 1876 - 1885, the architecture cycle 1906 -1915 , the rebirth cycle 1936-1945 etc but I decided not to include them because they may not have been considered "neutral" enough although such theme divisions are very common in history books covering a considerable period of time and I think it would be reader friendly to include them.

The term "decade" could be deleted if it is thought to be confusing to some readers, while the ten year division could still be kept as the theme is implied by the events listed.

The internal decade format, either open or suggested, also ties the history in with the traditional celebrations, the 50th anniversay, the 75th anniversary, 100th anniversary etc which don't take reference to any overall the 1880's, the 1990's etc, "decade" divisions.

I have no objection to the creating of a separate "History of Cairns Timeline" entry with a link to the main encyclopedia article and may submit one to see if it's accepted by the powers that be. It would mean the history references wouldn't clash with the basic Cairns article references and a separate entry would also have enough space for a slight expansion of all the events listed to make the article flow better.

Because of the simplification, in a limited space, of a number of important events over a considerable period of time I can't see any way of avoiding a certain amount of "list feel", but as the aim with this particular section,like the rain chart, is surely the giving of a consise, digestible yet not superficial, overview of the key events of a history, a certain amount of "list feel" is inevitable.

I think history overview browsers are more likely to want to read a series of quick change, short theme paragraphs broken up by highlighted years then a single multi-theme essay.

The previously mentioned slight expansions, such as I recently uploaded to the Captain Cook visit, World War Two period and aboriginal land rights recognition items, should help without distracting too much. All the events mentioned in the history have relevant, and interesting, extra information from the accompaning newspaper articles which I deliberately ommited to keep the word count down. If the item is moved to a new entry position where more word count is available I could reinstate the ommited information which should help "the flow".

I have deleted the "too many references to mention here" and the word "decade" in the uploaded expansion until a decision is made about moving the timeline to its own entry. Putting the multiple references in the present history article would really exhaust the space limit.

As regards the photos, I just think there could be better ones. Ones taken from the upper floor of an esplanade located or near located high rise complex capture the whole city area and the background hills and ranges, Walshs Pyramid etc.

tobalwin 11:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redbank Paragraph Reference deleted

Deleted the paragraph on Redbank as it is not correct and the irrelevant reference to the brickworks should have indicated it was a prank submission. William Tierney writing in the Around The Campfire column in the North Queensland Register 29.5.1971, said In 1878 a party left Cairns [note: Cairns is already establised as a port by this date] to prospect the head of the Inlet and the Mulgrave. They noted the vast rich timber resources and agricultural land. On returning with this glowing report,it took very little time for businessmen to pick Redbank and by September 30 that year,men were cutting cedar in the area. Note the page number is missing from the source a clipping from the archives of Glenville Pike, published North Queensland historian since the 1940's. There are numerous other references if this action is still questioned.tobalwin 11:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Length Of Article (History section)

Uploaded the expanded history as no one has objected over the last two weeks [maybe no one saw my notice of post in this section]. I was advised via a Wiki prompt during editing that the article is now 40k long but before someone starts hacking into the attempted quality section - the history - could we have some debate here. I felt the original article was, ironicaly for the subject, too dry which is why I added some relevant detail.

Perhaps the size could be reduced by deleting all the mundane photos. I realise they were probaly used as filler in the original article to break up the general information but I believe the expanded history would be a far better utilisation of the available memory. One quality, medium sized, East to South West panorama from inlet to range photo [it is available, I'll try and get permission to upload it] would be far more effective as a visual introduction and the climate table is hardly essential. tobalwin 11:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to fork off some of the larger sections to a new entries like Brisbane for example. Removing images will not help as image size is not counted in the 40KB total. The climate table is a common feature of most city entries and should remain. Mkfenn 22:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion and Additions

Expanded the Captain Cook visit and declaration of the port of Cairns sections. Added the 1942 population evacuations of WW2, the declaration of the official tourist area, the date for inclusion of Wet Tropics as World Heritage, the significance of the Kuranda hippy period, the contribution to tourism faculities made by the Japanese Daikyo company and the recognition of Yarrabah clan aboriginal land rights. tobalwin 00:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cairns History Timeline

Uploaded the suggested "Cairns History Timeline" to the new page section for consideration as a separate item. tobalwin 19:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Divided History

Divided the history into three sections - Early History / Foundation History / Modern History. I think this makes it less unwieldy and they're obvious subdivisions anyhow.tobalwin 09:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Firstly, I've reform I reformat the sections on this talk page relating to the History section and length of the article. I hope that's okay.

I haven't been keeping and eye on Wikipedia for several weeks as I've been away. Firstly, Tobalwin - good work on adding all the content to the History section. I think that there is probably enough there to spin off into its own article about History of Cairns, Queensland. Could we aim to convert the format into prose and pear down some of the content and move it into a separate "History" article. Good articles should contain consise prose rather than lists. Looking at featured articles such as Boston, Canberra, Johannesburg and New York, the History section is usually at the front (alternatively Geography) and usually isn't overly long. The London article splits its history up into subsections as has been done here, but again, good prose and not overly long.

On the same note, I think the 'Transport' and 'Urban Structure' sections are also a bit on the long side. This is mostly my doing as I wrote much of what is currently there, and I think the urban structure bit has already been peared down. I think both contain a little too much detail, particularly the 'Roads' section. Perhaps they could both be sumarised here while being expanded at a longer Geography of Cairns, Queensland article. The 'Transport' section here could be rolled into an 'Infrastructure' section similar to the Canberra and Melbourne articles.

These are just my thoughts and I don't want to step on anybody's toes so am willing to hear what others think.

Cheers -- Adz|talk 11:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the history section needs to be split off into its own page. It is currently too long. (Also, are future events really counted as history? 2026 On April 24, the Yarrabah based Mandingalbay people became only the second aboriginal clan in Queensland, after the Djabugay group, to win recognition of their traditional lands...) Fosnez 17:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I think its reasonably safe to assume that the 2026 was a typo. I've changed it. Tobalwin (or whoever added it) can change it back if it should read something other than 2006. -- Adz|talk 02:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the splitting off of some of the larger sections. The article is becoming too long. Mkfenn 09:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Obviously the 2026 mention was a mistake or a typo the reference gives the 2006 date.

How can the history of Cairns be split off? I take it an experienced Wikipedia editor has to make the recommendation. I applied at the article section to do so a few weeks ago but haven't heard any further.

Making the history more "prose" and less "list" is going to be a challenge as the major developements were not overly dramatic from a world history viewpoint but more a series of significant local steps forward which usually followed a similar theme in a particular cycle. As stated before, if more space is available I can expand a number of current "list" items to include reasons why that particular event or person was significant to the history of Cairns.

If a separate history article is created I'd like to have a go at assembling it by converting the present history section since I have considerable access to Cairns newspaper and document source material but I would appreciate knowing specifically what currently "listed" items other editors think need to be deleted or converted into "prose" and their specific Cairns history related reasons for such opinions. tobalwin 16:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

You can split the section off yourself by creating a new article called 'History of Cairns, Queensland'. You can start a new article by using this tool or by doing the following:

1. Type 'History of Cairns, Queensland' into the search field on the left hand side and click 'go'. It should come up with a page containing search results, like this.
2. Click on the red text that says "create this page". It should take you here
3. This gives you a new edit field with no text. You can enter text here to start the article off (or by copying and pasting).
4. Be sure to assign the new article to one or more categories. You do this by adding, for example, "Category:History of Queensland" or "Category:Far North Queensland to the bottom of the text in the edit field.
5. Once you've moved the text into the new article, remove the bulk of the section from the old article, leaving a summary. At the top of the section, provide a link to the main article by inserting the text "{{main|History of Cairns, Queensland}}" below the sub-heading. This will create a template pointing to the main article.

Let me know if you run into trouble. Good Luck. -- Adz|talk 00:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relocated History

Relocated history to own article as suggested. Placed brief history summary on Cairns page. Will upload full references to History of Cairns article in coming week and flesh out rest of article shortly tobalwin 15:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I think that the addition of (cans) as a pronunciation is incorrect. It is not a proper phonetic spelling and I can't recall having ever heard anybody say Cairns this way. I have already removed it once and it has been replaced so will wait for others opinions on the matter. Mkfenn 22:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I was born and raised in Cairns, and my family are original settlers and I say "cans" as does everybody else i know!! Angra 10:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Also a Cairns resident here and I pronounce it as I would "cans" in the following sentance: I bought two cans of cat food. - Fosnez 10:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm also a Cairns resident and have never heard anyone say "Cans" it's more like keːnz with the 'a' being very hard a almost like an 'e'. Mkfenn 02:25, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tagged Article

Would the contributors who wrote the various sections of this Cairns article please add their references as soon as possible so it can lose that credibility destroying "tag". It should be a lot easier for them as they presumedly would know where the information came from, others would be only guessing. tobalwin 20:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cairns Population

Currently there is a bit of an edit war happening between myself and Thuringowacityrep over the population of Cairns. (with such choice phrases as wake up fool you wish cairns had that many people). In any case, I have correctly cited a reliable source in my edit and have now uploaded a scan of the article as proof. I will be changing the article soon. Fosnez 23:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Lets just wait and see what some other Editors have to say about this matter that don't live in Cairns before you change it back, I ask this because when I used a newspaper as a reliable source to show the population of Thuringowa as 63,000 people, it was changed back and I was told that we have to use the ABS website and the 2006 Census figures, I was also told this on the Townsville and Thuringowa Region population figures, that I have at over 163,000 if I use the source from the Townsville Bully and again when I made the change to the 163,000 figure it got changed back within a few minutes and was told that I need to use the current Census stats, and this is what I have done for years, but now it seems that because it is for Cairns it is ok to use some story from a Cairns based newspaper and I think that this is wrong, if you want to add the 140,000+ to the Cairns page, that is fine but don't have it in the main infobox, just add it in here "The city is rapidly expanding, with a population of 127,438 (as of Feb, 2006),[4] and is reliant on the sugar and tourism industries." Change the 127,438 to the 140,000+ put as of Sept 2007 add your ref and I'm sure this would be fine.
But I would like to here what other editors have to say on this. Thanks Thuringowacityrep 00:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The 2006 Census has the population of Cairns at 122,731 and the Cairns City Council (a large geographical area) as 127,438 The Cairns Post article that Fosnez has uploaded relies on Cairns City Council figures which covers the larger area and also the source of the figure is the Cairns City Council itself so if the two figures are in conflict (which they are considering the article says that Cairns has grown 3% so about 5 000 people, not by 13 000 which would be needed to get up to the quoted 140 655 figure) the ABS has to be seen as the more neutral source as Cairns City Council has a vested interest.

I hope that clears up this little dispute, could both of you please keep calm when there is a dispute over content and refrain from edit warring, I know from my own experiences that it is only counterproductive. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 05:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Climate

I have a couple questions about the climate section but I dont want to just make the changes, as there may be disputes. In this section Babinda is referanced as the wettest township. Just after this there are detailed statistics, about monsoonal data, and railway flooding. I feel that this reads poorly and does not belong in the Cairns page. My proposed change would be: The township of Babinda at the southern end of the city is one of Australia’s wettest towns, recording an annual rainfall of over 4,200 millimetres (165 in).

Also, the recent change made to climate: Cairns experiences a warm tropical climate. It experiences a wet season with tropical monsoons between December and April and a dry season between May and November, which, however, is not completely dry like in most of tropical Australia: there are frequent showers for most of this period.

I would like to remove: which, however, is not completely dry like in most of tropical Australia: there are frequent showers for most of this period.

Any Thoughts? Erick880 (talk) 21:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Urban layout

The information on site "Cairns is a provincial city and has a linear urban layout that runs from the south, at Aloomba, to the north, at Ellis Beach[6]. The city is approximately 52 km (32 mi) from north to south. " is not correct. The city runs from Mirriwinni to Ellis Beach and that's about 92 km. Please have a look at the map http://cairns.qld.gov.au/cairns/files/Street%20Index%20PDFs/Index%20Map.pdf Could someone to correct that information please ?

122.148.58.71 (talk) 12:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] statement in intro

A major attraction in Cairns is the lagoon.[neutrality disputed] Cairns Mayor Kevin Byrne declared in May, 2003 that topless sunbaking is permitted here as this area is a gathering point for people from around the world who may wish to do so. [4][5] why is this here? WP:UNDUE to me. Michellecrisp (talk) 14:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• • I agree, that statement does not belong, probably added when it was news, and just left in. Also, I agree with the neutrality of that statement not being up to snuff. Good changes. Erick880 (talk) 21:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mount Bartle Frere

• I agree with all of the editors removing it from the article, this does not belong in Cairns. Mount Bartle Frere is not in Cairns, but rather in the Atherton Tablelands section of FNQ. As it has been removed by two other editors and my vote is the third to make a consensus I am removing it pending four people saying it belongs. Erick880 (talk) 20:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

• So much for the discussion I asked for.....well seeing how it never happened, in the discussion I was going to say that maybe this small one sentence could be moved and added back near where the page talks about the Atherton Tablelands being part of the Cairns economic catchment, and where are all the editors that removed it????? I just went back looking and this has been on the page un-removed from at least Dec 8th 2006 so you have the facts wrong....only one editor removed it....I put it back after re-wording it a little and asked for this to be discussed and now you make up some editors and remove it.....I feel that this is a very important part of the page and needs to stay like it has for the last 2 years with no problems at all.

I agree with Erick880, whilst there is no definitive rules about the distance for inclusion, 70km from a city is pushing it. Happy for others to comment so we can gain consensus either way. Michellecrisp (talk) 00:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

• I'd like to know why it is ok for an editor to lie, so that they can remove important info....if i did that i would be blocked for sure.....Thuringowacityrep (talk) 10:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, I would NEVER accuse anyone especially a fellow editor of lying without knowing all the facts. I did however make a mistake, and counted the two edits w/o seeing they were by the same editor.

With that said, this section of Mount Bartle Frere does not belong in the Cairns Article, as it is irrelevant. Currently, Cairns is a B class article, and the more irrelevant and off topics we have in it is only going to hurt our chances of getting an A on importance. Google is the most used search engine, because they are selective and even exclusionary with data, focusing on relevance rather than inclusion. While Mount BF is important to some sections, to include it in Cairns only dilutes the importance of the article overall.

Also, I am an editor that makes many edits, and patrols recent changes for vandalism, I try to be objective, and really do not have time to self promote, or lie. Please respect fellow editors in the future, and question before accusing. Erick880 (talk) 08:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)