Talk:Cabeiri

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This page has been moved from Kabeiroi without discussion, perhaps without looking at "What links here".--Wetman 05:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The following text, for which sources were requested by User:Pmanderson, who then immediately deleted it, is pasted below. Are there any legitimate quibbles on the mainstream nature and factual accuracy that can't simply be edited into this material? --Wetman 06:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The Cabeiri were possibly originally Phrygian<:ref>According to scholia on Apollonius' Argonautica I. "The Phrygian origin of the Kabeiric cult asserted by Stesimbrotos of Thasos and recently defended by O. Kern cannot, therefore, be rejected a priori", wrote Giuliano Bonfante, "A Note on the Samothracian Language" Hesperia 24.2 (April 1955, pp. 101-109) p. 108; Bonfante agrees with Jacob Wackernagel that Κάβειροι cannot be Greek; Wackernagel suggested Thracian or Phrygian, two closely related peoples.</ref> deities and protectors of sailors, who were imported into Greek ritual.<:ref>"The secret of the mysteries is rendered more enigmatic by the addition of a non-Greek, pre-Greek element" (Burkert 1985:281). Burkert does not intend to suggest that the pre-Greek component was added.</ref> They were most commonly depicted as two people: an old man, Axiocersus, and his son, Cadmilus. Due to the cult's secrecy, however, their exact nature and relationship with other ancient Greek and Thracian religious figures remained mysterious. As a result, the membership and roles of the Cabiri changed significantly over time, with common variants including a female pair (Axierus and Axiocersa) and twin youths who were frequently confused with Castor and Pollux, who were also worshiped as protectors of sailors. The number of Cabiri also varied, with some accounts citing four (often a pair of males and a pair of females) of them, and some even more, such as a tribe or whole race of Cabiri

Contents

[edit] Discussion

Bonfante's words on Phrygians are hardly a ringing endorsement; a reference to Burkert, p.282, would have sufficed; therefore the note, while welcome, is redundant. Much more seriously, Burkert distinguishes systematically between the gods of Lemnos, unquestionably Cabeiri, and the cult of Samothrace, who may not be, in the strict sense. Almost all of this is about Samothrace, not Lemnos; and therefore does not belong in the header, where it is misleading.

An indication to that effect could be contrived, but it would be clumsy. Better to have separate sections on Lemnos, Thebes, and Samothrace, and include this under the proper heading.


While I am discussing these matters, I do not see where Burkert quotes Varro as suggesting relations between Casmilus and the Lady of Samothrace. For that matter, I do not see where Varro does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Varro LL 5.58: Terra enim et Caelum, ut Samothracum, initia docent, sunt dei magni, et hi quos dixi multis nominibus, non quas Samothracia ante portas statuit duas virilis species aeneas dei magni, neque ut volgus putat, hi Samothraces dii, qui Castor et Pollux, sed hi mas et femina et hi quos Augurum Libri scriptos habent sic "divi potes," pro illo quod Samothraces Theoi dynatoi
    • This is of course Burkert's source for the columns, which I by no means dispute.
  • Ibid. 7.34: Camillam qui glossemata interpretati dixerunt administram; addi oportet, in his quae occultiora: itaque dicitur nuptiis camillus qui cumerum fert, in quo quid sit, in ministerio plerique extrinsecus nesciunt. Hinc Casmilus nominatur Samothreces mysteriis dius quidam amminister diis magnis. Verbum esse Graecum arbitror, quod apud Callimachum in poematibus eius inveni.
  • And that would appear to be all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson

[edit] Accuracy

The following claims are made in the disputed paragraph. As it stands, all are unsourced. (The comments are all from Burkert.)

  • The Cabeiri were described most frequently as an old man and a boy.
    • Half-true of Lemnos; one of several descriptions mentioned. False of Samothrace, where the deities are described either as a triad with an attendant or a single Mistress, Electra or Electryone.
  • These are Axiocersus and his son Cadmilus.
    • Unsupported for Lemnos. False for Samothrace; as Varro says above, Cadmilus is an attendant (amminster).
  • Changed in the course of time.
    • Unsupported (and since Burkert says the dedications just say 'theoi', it is difficult to imagine what evidence this could have.)
  • A female pair Axieros and Axiocersa.
    • Partly true of Samothrace. Burkert cites Mneseas as translating these as Demeter and Persephone, respectively, and says Varro represents them as Juno and Minerva. Pair is misleading, however, two would be better.
  • Twin youths.
    • Unsupported. This would appear to be a distortion of Kerenyi's conjecture, which is entirely his own. It should not be given in WP's voice, and it should be accurate. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Confused with Castor and Pollux
    • False. What Varro says is that the twin columns were confused with Castor and Pollux.
  • Protectors of sailors.
    • Supported, at last, Burkert p.284.
  • "Number of Cabeiri...race or tribe. "
    • Partly supported, Burkert p.281, for Lemnos. Must be desperately confusing for the poor reader, who thinks we've been talking about Cabeiri all the time.

I deplore, also, that the footnotes for the etymology section are the disjecta membra of Burkert's footnote 23 (on page 457, to page 282) without mentioning him. One should credit the source one has primarily consulted, especially when reproducing his opinions. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Strabo

Kerenyi's reference for Cabeiro as the mother of the Cabeiri is Strabo 10.3.21; you might have looked it up. Kerenyi says nothing about their father, but Strabo does: "that three Cabeiri and three nymphs called Cabeirides were the children of Cabeiro, the daughter of Proteus, and Hephaestus". The interpolation of "fatherless" is more OR. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More Kerenyi

  • 61: Cabeiri purified Hecate by the Acherusian Sea in the underworld (sch. Theocritus 2.21)
  • 74: K. sees them as dwarfs or great gods, on islands, like Pygmalion on Cyprus ( < pygmaeon) Telchines on Rhodes, and Hephaestus.
  • 87 C. Smiths, therefore Hephaistoi
  • 88:Telchines and Capheira reared Poseidon (Diodorus 3.55.1, also Callimachius Del. 31) Her name shows Telchines = Cabeiri
  • 156: See Talk:Cedalion
  • 171: hermae from the C. (Herodotus 2.51; Callimachus Diegmata 8.33)
  • 184: conj. identity of Halia, Aphrodite, Amphitrite... Cabeiro, Capheira, as one great goddess.
  • 189: Island of Lemnos, with C. and Heph., identified with goddess Lemnos. (Stephanus of Byzantium)
  • 192:Helios self-begetting, husband/son of Great Mother, like the Dactyli or Cabeiri.
  • 219: "primordial men are Silenoi or Satyres, not Kabeiroi.
  • 222 Prometheus had an iron ring (Catullus 64.295, Hyginus, Astr. 2,15) "Possible" he's an iron working C. or Dactyl.
  • 265, incidental mention of the Mysteries of S.

Beyond this are his two expositions of the Mother-Goddess, all his own work:

  • on page 86-88 his version of Samothrace.
    • He cites Strabo for Mt. Cabeirus in Berecynthia and Cabeiro; Diodorus (5.55.1; 5.64.4) for identification with the Idaean Dactyls and the Great Mother settling the Corybantes, her sons on Samothrace. Also a a story from Clement Protrepticon, 2.19.1 about three Corybantes brothers in Macedonia.
    • He then deduces his version of Samothrace as follows:
      • Varro says that there is a vulgar error that the two columns are Castor and Pollux
      • We accept the error as fact, and "guess" that there is a third, secret brother.
      • His relationship to the Great Mother is secret (apparently ex silentio, since we have no evidence.)
      • Their father is also secret. (Unsourced;
      • There is a genealogy which says the C. descend from Cadmilus.
      • But the C. are the Corybantes, who are sons of the Great Mother.
      • Therefore,[sic] Cadmilus is his own father and that of his brothers.
    • The only sourced statement in all of this is the identification as Castor and Pollux, from a source that denies it.
  • 211: The Great Mother always had with her Dactyli, Curetes, Corybantes, or Cabeiri, "whom she had bred from within herself, and with whom she bred further" These may also become primitive peoples like the Telchines. Primordial gods of this kind are at the same time primordial men. Difference doubtless that as primordial men they "ceased to be husbands of the Great Goddess and received other wives." In this connection, he cites Strabo, loc. cit., incompletely, and concludes that the final three pairs are the promordial human couples.


This is intended as notes, for those, like myself, with limited access to Kerenyi's Gods of the Greeks. The only argument here is that Kerenyi's unsourced account of Samothrace is indeed a conjecture. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)