Talk:C. J. Cherryh bibliography

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[edit] Grouping books into articles

Now that we have articles for most of the series books (a few more to do yet), what to do about those novels that don't fit into a given series? Books like Serpent's Reach, Voyager in Night, and Tripoint, for example. Should every independent novel be put into its own article, or are there some logical groupings we might use? I'm not so sure. Some of the more major ones, Gehenna, for example, and Cuckoo's Egg (nominated for a Hugo), probably deserve their own articles.

I could see an article on Devil to the Belt that talked about the books included in that omnibus edition: Heavy Time and Hellburner. For stuff in the "The Era of Rapproachment", however I don't think all the books there should be all grouped together. Merchanter's Luck, Tripoint, and Finity's End are all told from the perspective of merchanters and so might potentially be grouped together in a "Merchanter novels" article (or something similar). Rimrunners is more military-oriented, although set during the same era and still an Alliance-side "merchanter" novel (sort-of). Serpent's Reach, however, is significantly different than the others (nominally Alliance-side, but Azi/Majat/Kontrin).

I like doing an article on Cherry's "magic cookie" books called "Alternate Realities", because that was the name of the omnibus edition the books were published under in 2001, and the books are all way out there in one way or another. (Downside there is that 2 are A-U and the other one isn't; maybe eventually split those out into separate articles?). "The Deep Beyond" doesn't merit that type of treatment (IMHO), however; I think Serpent's Reach and Cuckoo's Egg are quite different books and deserve their own articles.

Ok, so I guess this is my strawman for the rest of you to pick apart:

  1. Forty Thousand in Gehenna gets its own article.
  2. Cuckoo's Egg gets its own article.
  3. Serpent's Reach gets its own article.
  4. Alternate Realities gets an article to cover Port Eternity, Wave Without a Shore and Voyager in Night
  5. Devil to the Belt gets an article to cover Heavy Time and Hellburner
  6. Create an article called "The Merchanter novels" or something similar to cover Merchanter's Luck, Tripoint, and Finity's End. Maybe also include Rimrunners there?

What do you think? Fairsing 21:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm in favour of groupings, with separate articles for the prominent books (award winners and those nominated for awards) and those that just don't fit into any group.
In principle I'm happy with your suggested groupings and titles. Definitely Alternate Realities because its three short novels all have a similar feel to them, and I like the idea of The Merchanter novels. However, I'm not sure whether Serpent's Reach should stand on its own, but if there's nowhere else to place it, then that's fine.
And what about the others? Suggestions ...
  1. The Hanan Rebellion or At the Edge of Space (containing Brothers of Earth & Hunter of Worlds)
  2. The Gene Wars (containing Hammerfall & Forge of Heaven)
  3. The Dreaming Tree or Ealdwood (containing The Dreamstone & The Tree of Swords and Jewels)
... and that still leaves a few stand-alone novels: Hestia, The Paladin, The Goblin Mirror, Faery in Shadow and Lois & Clark: A Superman Novel. I don't know if there are any groupings here, but those that can't be grouped perhaps should just each have their own article.
I think what we've done so far is great, and thanks to all those concerned, particularly Fairsing for all his hard work. --Bruce1ee 09:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I like the ideas that have been presented, and I think that Rimrunners should be in with the Merchanter novels. I support these suggestions. Bo-Lingua 13:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infoboxes

I went through and infobox'd most of the book pages. The only ones I haven't done are the Morgaine, Fortress, and Russian series, as well as (shudder) the Foreigner series. So, I guess I've done about half of the total books. I think I'm stopping for now, I might pick back up on those left later. --PresN 19:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Very value-added contribution, thanks PresN! Fairsing 01:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Age of Exploration part of the Alliance-Union universe?

[1] and [2] (for example) show the Age of Exploration (comprising Cuckoo's Egg, Port Eternity and Voyager in Night) as separate from the Alliance-Union. On Ms Cherryh's own web site she lists the three books under "Miscellany" and not the Alliance-Union [3]. I have seen sites showing the Age of Exploration as part of the Alliance-Union. Does anyone know which it is? --Bruce1ee 08:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

DAW counts Cuckoo's Egg as A/U and Age of Exploration, the other two are under Alternate Realities. Ms. Cherryh does the same on her Foreign Bibliography. --Anibas 09:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I actually looked at her Foreign Bibliography but I didn't scroll down far enough! But I think she needs to update her Universes page (if she gets time!). --Bruce1ee 10:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Given that Port Eternity uses azi and uses that exact term and they are exactly the same as other azi, I would say ABSOLUTELY they are the same. Bo-Lingua 17:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd argue that the Foreigner Universe and Finisterre belong under Alliance-Union as well. Foreigner started with station builders getting lost in Jump. That's pretty clear; it is like Mri and Merovingen where people from elsewhere landed and it deals with their society.

Also, Wave Without A Shore and Hestia also take place in Alliance-Union.

Only Gene Wars and Morgaine are separate series.

Thoughts?

--User:forceten 01:07, November 20, 2006 (UTC)

I think this needs to be discussed first before making any changes, so I've reverted Forceten's edit of 20 November 2006 pending a discussion.
Ms Cherryh's Foreign Bibliography (near the bottom) clearly places Foreigner, Finisterre, Wave Without a Shore and Hestia outside the Alliance/Union Universe. Also the issue of whether the Foreigner universe falls under Alliance-Union was debated here. --Bruce1ee 07:38, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, should've waited. I read that discussion. I think it's clear that Phoenix was a A-U station builder. I think it's largely irrelevant that the rest of the story of the Foreigner arcs take place outside of A-U space - the humans are from A-U, and they looked for "Sol" (which is what they called Earth's star). The characters jump differently because they're stranded without fixed jump points -- they're creating their own. They're adapting. But they're Earth Company. As for Finisterre, the background history of the humans on the planet talk of being from space and its consistent with A-U space. I wouldn't put too much stock in where she placed them on her web page - there's a lot of marketing reasons why you wouldn't want either series listed under A-U. But if they're branches, why wouldn't we pull Mri out (we shouldn't!), etc. That discussion brought up an interesting point that I didn't remember, either - if Morgaine is indeed from Union, then that's potentially an A-U book. Not sure.. but Foreigner has never been a doubt that Phoenix was an Earth Company station builder. Re-read the Introduction (the pre-history, if you will) from Foreigner. --User:forceten 11:38, November 20, 2006 (UTC)
Forceten, can you provide any specific quotes/citations from the Finisterre books, Wave w/o a Shore, Hestia, and/or Foreigner series that would indicate they are part of the A-U universe? I mean definitive evidence as opposed to the fact that there are similarities between these books and the A-U universe. For example, calling our star "Sol" has been a convention in science fiction stories for decades, but of course not all science fiction stories that refer to "Sol" are A-U. Specific references to the Earth Company, AlSec, Estelle Bok, Cyteen, Union, the Alliance, Hisa, Mariner Station, etc. -- really anything specific that might back up your hypotheses? I think that in order to statisfy WP:V we need specific citations before we can include these works as part of A-U. Fairsing 06:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been able to find anything in Foreigner (yet) that indicates it _is_ A/U. I'm re-reading them for that express goal right now. Bo-Lingua 17:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
"I use Alliance/Union to describe novels that are centered around the Company Wars." -- quote from Cherryh's home page. That's her nametag - but the Alliance-Union Universe, the universe she builds in, is quite separate. For example, she doesn't have Chanur in that grouping either, and Chanur is, to my mind, quite clearly in that universe. It's very loose, but seems more reasonable to stick it within her single sci-fi universe than make it separate because she doesn't use Company Wars terms - this could be set early on in FTL travel - before Union's founding. I'd have to re-thumb through Finisterre but I remember being surprised when I read something that indicated it, too, was a world in the A-U universe. Can we compromise and put it in a section as possibly within A-U universe but not Company Wars related? Gene Wars, on the other hand, is clearly a different universe. Wave Without A Shore is unquestionably A-U. It mentions Alliance on the very first page - that Freedom isn't visited there other than pirates and when Alliance wants to hold a military exercise. Hestia mentions interactions with spacers and space ships and Earth in a format that is once again comfortable and reminiscent of the standard A-U world. User:forceten 02:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Thinking (or re-thinking!) about this more, you know, Gene Wars has a station with similar naming standards, etc.. so maybe Hestia isn't part.. Foreigner never mentioned Alliance, Union, or Earth Company either.. so it might not be a part. It's too bad that they didn't because she created individual worlds within a framework that's essentially the same as the A-U's framework but set them apart.. Finisterre - I have to go dig and figure out where I got the impression that the spacers were from a world within the A-U framework.. its possible that this world, too, is a generic world that used loose ideas similar to A-U without being specifically within. I sent her an e-mail.. maybe she can clear it up. :-) User:forceten 02:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe we should be the ones to decide what is A-U and what is not. I believe we should follow what Ms Cherryh herself intended and use her website as the reference. Of course we don't know to what extent her publishers have influenced these book groupings, but even so, it is the "official" book grouping which I think we should adhere to. --Bruce1ee 06:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Morgaine - she said she was from Union Science - shouldn't that mean that the Morgaine set is Alliance-Union as well? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.42.51.27 (talk) 01:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC).
There's a note on this in the Morgaine Cycle article. Fairsing 05:15, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wave Without a Shore

Forceten, can you provide the quote from the first page of Wave w/o a Shore that establishes it as an A-U novel? My copy of the book is currently in storage and I can't look it up myself. Thanks! Fairsing 03:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure! Here it is: "There were inevitably the military ships, who came pursuing the pirates on one of the occasional campaigns for order, whenever the pirates had gotten too daring and touched off a hunt, or when the powers which ran the Alliance decided it was time to hold a military exercise." User:forceten 04:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Cool, I never knew Wave Without a Shore was part of the Alliance-Union universe. Fairsing 06:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miscategorized Book

The Deep Beyond is miscategorized as a collection. The two novels are as long as or longer than her average book at that time. Each is well over the word count to qualify as novels and each was originally published as a separate novel. It is an omnibus.

I recognize it's a hard-to-categorize omnibus since they cross the pre-existent categories but an awkward categorization would be better than a wrong one. Maybe list the omnibus in its own category, or twice under each novel that forms it, or re-arrange them - whatever people think is best.

-- Er, that goes even more so for Alternate Realities, now that my eyeballs finally engage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.227.122.125 (talk • contribs) 01:23, 30 December 2006 UTC

I agree, The Deep Beyond and Alternate Realities are not collections but omnibuses. I think they should be removed from the Other Works / Collections section, and listed under a separate Omnibus section, and/or put a note under each of the respective novels saying something like:
  • also published in The Deep Beyond (2005) omnibus
Keeping in mind that if we do create an Omnibus section we will need to list all the other omnibuses, like The Faded Sun Trilogy, etc. --Bruce1ee 15:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
The "also published in" solution makes sense to me. Fairsing 16:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the omnibus entries from Collections and referred to them under each of the respective novels they contain. --Bruce1ee 06:30, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

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