Talk:C. B. Fry

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Contents

[edit] Long jump record?

I am new to Wiki, so don't want to attempt editing. CB Fry's 21 year long jump record is a myth. He only equalled the existing record, and that stood for just 18 months.

S.

  • Bah, this is what you get for believing Wisden. I looked up some numbers - it says Fry jumped 23 feet 5 inches in an Oxford-Cambridge match in 1892. That's 7.14 metres. In 1901, Peter O'Connor jumped 7.61 metres. So, definitely didn't last 21 years. I shall amend the page. Average Earthman 11:13, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • Corrected - Fry's 23'5" was the varsity record, his world record was 23'6.5" (according to the Oxford University Athletics website). Still well beaten by O'Connor. Average Earthman 11:28, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The progression of WR was thus :

   7.09    Alfred Copland  USA     Washington      Oct 11, 1890
        7.17    Charles Reber   USA     Detroit         Jul 04, 1891
        7.17*   Charles Fry     GBR     Oxford  Mar 05, 1893
        7.21    John Mooney     IRL     Mitchelstown    Sep 05, 1894
        7.235   Meyer Prinstein         USA     New York        Jun 11, 1898
        7.25    William Newburn         IRL     Dublin  Jun 18, 1898
        7.33    William Newburn         IRL     Dublin  Jul 16, 1898
        7.48?   William Newburn         IRL     Mullingate      Jul 19, 1898
        7.40    Alvin Kraenzlein        USA     Philadelphia    Apr 29, 1899
        7.42    Alvin Kraenzlein        USA     New York        May 26, 1899
        7.43    Alvin Kraenzlein        USA     New York        May 26, 1899
        7.50    Meyer Prinstein         USA     Philadelphia    Apr 28, 1900
        7.51    Peter O'Connor  IRL     New Ross        Aug 29, 1900
        7.54    Peter O'Connor  IRL     Dublin  May 27, 1901
        7.60    Peter O'Connor  IRL     Dublin  Jul 15, 1901
        7.605   Peter O'Connor  IRL     Dublin  Jul 28, 1901
        7.61    Peter O'Connor  GBR     Dublin  Aug 05, 1901

The source is http://trackfield.brinkster.net/RecProg_All.asp?RecCode=WR&EventCode=MF3&Gender=M , but you may have register to access it. O'Connor's was the first official record.

An argument usually raised in favour of Fry is that the English and American system of measurement were different. Americans at the time used to measure the length of the jump for the point where the foot last landed, while English measured it from the take off line. But the 21 years, as you have mentioned, is undoubtedly the University record. This is recorded here : http://www.achilles.org/varsitymatch/menfield/vm18.htm

S.

    • I spotted that was the varsity record - I think I looked at the same link you did. That's now noted in the article, and I'll add that his shared record was broken by Mooney. Average Earthman 09:36, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] 'Related to Stephen Fry'

OK, CB Fry and Stephen Fry (the 1920's Hampshire cricketer) are related (CB was Stephen's father), but how are CB Fry and Stephen Fry the comedian related? Average Earthman 09:29, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You've beaten me to it. I was wondering the same thing, jguk 10:12, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
And Stephen (1920s Hampshire) was father of Charles Fry, MCC president[1].
C.B. was Stephen Fry (the actor)'s great uncle (or similar) - I can't remember the details, but it was mentioned on QI so it must be true :) I'm having trouble finding another reference, though. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:22, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For the time being, I've moved the statement "He is related to Stephen Fry" from the article. I'd be happy to have it re-added if we had a more reliable source than a comedy panel game:) and if it is true, we really should add what the relationship is - and also add it to the Stephen Fry article:) jguk 22:47, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"more reliable source than a comedy panel game"...??? The source on said panel game was Stephen Fry himself (what more proof do you want?!), and it was broadcast on national British television. It has since been repeated twice. Howie 23:45, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Albanian crown offer?

"It is often stated..." sounds pretty uncertain; anyone got some firm evidence either way? Loganberry (Talk) 16:17, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Neville Cardus in Fry's Wisden obit quotes CBF's autobiography :
In his absorbing autobiography, Life Worth Living, published in 1939, Fry told of how he very nearly became the King of Albania. His association with Ranjitsinhji led him to occupy the position of substitute delegate for India at the Assemblies of the League of Nations at Geneva, where he composed a speech delivered by Ranji which turned Mussolini out of Corfu.
The Albanians sent a delegation and appointed a Bishop, who bore a striking resemblance to W. G. Grace, to find an English country gentlemen with £10,000 a year for their King. Fry had the first qualification but not the second; but Ranji certainly could have provided the money. "If I had really pressed Ranji to promote me," said Fry, "it is quite on the cards that I should have been King of Albania yesterday, if not today."

Source

Both Cardus and Fry are known to pass off a lot of fiction as fact, though ;-)

The first comment in this talk page (about Fry's record) was my first edit in wiki :) Tintin 16:51, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 66 runs

I've read that C.B. Fry one hit a ball into a tree and scored 66 runs before the ball was fielded. User:Nichalp/sg 19:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Mmmmm, now, if you only had a reference for that, Nicholas:) jguk 20:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Too bad I don't. It was on a small DYK card that used to come with some chocolates years back. (early 90s) User:Nichalp/sg 13:40, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Relationship to Stephen Fry

I am removing the following paragraph, which appears to be subject to a revert war at present:

Comedian and writer Stephen Fry is related to him, as revealed on the television panel game QI. It was also revealed (to much amusement) that, as a party piece, C.B. Fry was able to jump backwards onto a mantlepiece from a standing position.

The reason I am removing it is that a comedy quiz show is not a suitable source. I saw the edition of QI in question too - and whilst Stephen Fry does say that, it is not clear whether he is saying it as a fact, or whether he is just saying it because they share a surname. Nor does he mention the relationship. Not only that Wikipedia:Verifiability makes it clear that we should rely on published, reputable sources. A comedy quiz programme doesn't fit into that. Please do not re-insert the information without a published source - and I'd expect such a source to describe the relationship too, jguk 19:33, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

No advance on their relationship (my recollection is that Stephen does indeed claim CB as a relative, and not as a joke) but here is a source (Cricinfo, no less) for the mantlepiece claim, which should be stetted. It is mentioned in this one (referring to a Manchester newspaper).-- ALoan (Talk) 21:23, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I've just seen a programme on the BBC where Stephen Fry traced his ancesters back to his great, great grandparents. No mention of CB Fry, sadly. here for some info. Hardly definative, but there we go! Gavinio 23:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Certainly not definitive - the TV programme traced his maternal roots. If he is indeed a relative of CB Fry, it would be an extraordinary coincidence if it wasn't through his paternal line! Dweller 09:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Magazine?

Didn't Fry also create a (then) famous magazine for boys? Anyone remember? Dweller 09:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


He did, it was called Fry's Magazine and covered boys activities such as scouting and sport. Fry acted as editor and wrote much of it himself.Johnnybriggs 05:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Training ship Mercury

I seem to recall that late in life, Fry is quoted as saying that what he achieved on the Mercury was his greatest achievement in life. Anyone got a source? Would be a nice addition to the article. Dweller 09:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Info Box

Shouldn't there be data for some of the other sports, as well as cricket? Dweller 09:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neville Cardus

I have books by Cardus in which he talks about Fry and I will try to embody some of that into this article. Anyone else have any similar thoughts? --AlbertMW 06:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Please go ahead. Since you are new here, it may help to take a look around the other cricket articles to get an idea about what the existing ones are like. Tintin (talk) 06:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Polymath

I removed the description of Fry being a polymath because there is nothing at all in the article that would even begin to make such a description plausible. If someone wants to put it back, please give your reasons. Hi There 13:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

It's back. See Polymath and its talk page. This article demonstrates he was a polymath beyond any debate. --Dweller 10:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
It hardly makes him a polymath beyond any debate, does it? It was a throw-away comment by a journalist writing about something else entirely. Having said that, I can see the reasons for having it in. He's probably close to being a polymath - but I'd say his skills were less academic than most polymaths. --Gavinio 15:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed it. Your reference is laughable. Some sportswriter making a bald reference to Fry as a "polymath" is not authoritative in any way at all. If you would like to take the time and trouble to write the article so that the reasons for considering him a polymath are included in the article itself, a discussion might be possible.Hi There 17:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

What nonsense. Any fool can see that Fry excelled in what is, by any definition, a variety of careers. Conrary to wikipedia's definition (which I still think he comes under), the OED defines a polymath as "a person of wide-ranging knowledge or learning". He certainly fits that. Superseve 13:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with this. Think about the definition of polymath and try and use a synonym in place of the word Polymath. Greek definition is "many" & "knowing", I stress knowing. You can not substitute the phrase "renaisance man" in Fry's case. If you do you open the case for other (argueably much better) sports greats such as Michael Jordan (basket ball & baseball), Ben Graham (Australian football & American football), Shaun White (Snowboarding & Skateboarding) and Bo Jackson & Deion Sanders (both American Football & Baseball). Now I have not even begun to consider triathletes, pentathletes and decathletes. I am for removal as I feel this will open a flood gate of poor choices for a title that should be hard earned.--198.240.130.75 14:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

My reading of the article is not that he was a polymath simply because he was good at a variety of sports. He was also a politician (not a party politician) who was once offered the crown of Albania, he rubbed shoulders with statesmen, and was deeply concerned about the education of youth. Of course he knew a lot. Your idiosyncratic argument that Fry wasn't a polymath because you think Michael Jordan is a "better" sports great completely misses the point. --RobertG ♬ talk 14:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I've just come across the CB Fry article, I got King of Sports for Christmas. 2 things occurred to me, there are several passages (ringing phrases)which appear to have been lifted from the book - - and the word polymath as discussed above <groan>. I'm sure there is a more fitting but equally prestigious title for Fry.

Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci (April 15, 1452 – May 2, 1519) was an Italian polymath: architect, anatomist, sculptor, engineer, inventor, mathematician, musician, scientist, and painter. He has been described as the archetype of the "Renaissance man", a man infinitely curious and equally inventive. He is widely considered to be one of the greatest painters of all time, and perhaps the most intelligent and capable man to ever have lived.

WG Grace was a batsman, bowler, athlete, bowls player (captained England) and a Doctor but he wasn't a polymath. So I think we need a new word.

However, Fry was apparantly called a polymath and perhaps that would be the appropriate compromise


Also I don't think Fry taught at Repton, I think he taught at Charterhouse. p97-100 King of Sport by Iain Wilton.

Johnnybriggs 05:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bowled 10 balls for England?

That's rather an unusual number - did he complete someone else's over? Apepper 16:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

In those days they had five ball overs. Tintin 16:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Yep. This is the match in which he bowled: [2] JH (talk page) 16:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I didn't know they had anything other than 6 or 8 ball overs! Thanks for the info.Apepper 18:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] White City

I have changed the reference to Fry competing at White City in 1894 (it wasn't built until 1908!) to Queen's Club. The details can be found in the archives of the New York Times at [3]. Eyebeeuk (talk) 06:22, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This King Thing

Until we have more evidence than a book about cricket, I've removed the 'King of Albania' thing. I find this account rather unlikely for several reasons - when Mussolini was turned out of Corfu, Albania's Prime Minister, the future Zog I, was already planning to become King himself and is thus unlikely to have been offering the role to anybody else. Furthermore it seems strange that predominantly Muslim Albania would send a Bishop as its delegate. And of course it has to be said that I've read many histories of Albania during the interwar period that make no mention of an offer to any foreigner to be King other than the ill-fated reign of King Wilhelm. So until a more authoritative source that answers the above questions can be shown, it's my opinion this claim should not be reproduced in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hughteg (talk • contribs) 19:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I will repeat below the evidence that I gleaned from Gibson's book, which I think is quite convincing:
In Alan Gibson's "The Cricket Captains of England" he says: After the First World War, Ranjitsinhji was elected Chancellor of the Indian Princes, and as such was a member of the Indian delegation to the League of Nations. He appointed Fry as his adviser, and as Ranji did not usually stay in Geneva very long, Fry often became a de facto representative of India, and impressed everyone very greatly with his linguistic fluency and majestic manner, even those who had not heard of cricket. Albania, a snall, newly-independent state, was looking for a king, pereferably an Englishman, and so Fry's name came up for consideration (by no means, it must be said, the only one).
I mentioned this story, which has often enough appeared in print, in an article in The Times some years ago, and it led to an interesting correspondence. There was one school of thought which maintained that no such offer had ever been made: that it was all a leg-pull by Ranji. Duleepsinhji... was cited in support of this view. But there was powerful evidence to the contrary, notably from Professor LF Rushbrook Williams, who succeeded to Fry's post in Ranji's service some years later. What happened, said Professor Rushbrook Williams, was that during the 1920 session of the League, at Geneva, an Albanian bishop had called on Ranji and Fry to intimate that if a candidate could be found who was ready to spend £10,000 a year in Albania, the crown would be at his disposal.
Fry was tempted, and believed that if he had pressed Ranji for the money, Ranji would have found it, but Ranji did not want to lose his services. Nevertheless, Rushbrook Williams concludes, "the provisional offer was undoubtedly given an airing, and it did not emanate from Ranji in the first instance."
A little later one of CB's daughters, Faith, who had been abroad and missed the correspondence, at the time of its publication, wrote to me and fully confirmed this account of what was known in the family, irreverently, as 'The Albanian Affair'. "I have never understood," she said, "why there have been so many variations on this theme, but they much amused my father!!"


This seems conclusive enough, though I could not help thinking that the variations on the theme possibly owed something to the central character himself, who liked to recount the tale, and, like all good raconteurs, would sometimes imaginatively elaborate a detail.
There is no need to doubt that the event is quite possible. Lord Headley, a British peer who had been converted to the Muslim religion, was approached; and ultimately it went to the unfortunate King Zog...
A business partner of Fry's, Christopher Hollis, wrote to me, in connection with the later versions of this story, that CB 'had a great capacity for living a fantasy life.' He went on, 'It pleased him to tell the story, and by the end I fancy that he did not know himself whether he believed it or not.' While one does not doubt the truth of this, it would be a mistake to think that Fry was a fantasist, in the sense that Walter Mitty was. His fantasies were no more than embroideries on what was already the finest silk. His achievements were real. (pp104-5 of the 1989 edition)
JH (talk page) 20:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

That does provide some more insight, so thanks for that. However this doesn't really answer my three objections, namely:

    1) The improbability of a Bishop as the delegate of a Muslim nation
    2) The improbability of the future Zog I offering the throne to somebody else when he had designs on it
    3) The lack of any mention of this in any history of Albania

It seems that even the author of this piece has some doubts. However, the allegation is clearly well known, so I've ammended the main page to refer to it, while also making clear reasons why the existence and/or seriousness of this offer can be doubted. Hughteg (talk) 20:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I know very little about Albanian history, so you have the advantage of me. The story has been repeated in many cricket books, which does not make it true of course but makes it worth documenting. The main evidence for it being other than a flight of fancy by Fry or a hoax is clearly Professor Rushbrook Williams' testimony. Do we know if it's true that Lord Headley was also approached with a similar offer? If so, that would tend to lend some credence. With regard to your three points:
   1) Going by Wikipedia's history of Albania, the country is roughly 60% Muslim and 40% Christian, so it's a bit of a simplification to call it a Muslim country. . I don't think that there's any evidence that the bishop was necessarily a delegate. He may have been an adviser. It's not clear who was responsible for sending him to Fry.
   2) We don't know that Zog had anything to do with it. Was he in a dominant position at this stage (1920)?
   3) I don't suppose that many historians of Albania would have been aware of Fry's autobiography, where the story seems first to have beem documented. It may be that very few people were aware of the offer.
All that said, I agree that there's a very substabtial degree of doubt that the offer was ever genuinely made, and in my revision the other day I attempted to make that clear. I haven't yet read your further amendment, but I don't suppose that I will quarrel with it. JH (talk page) 20:47, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I've just googled for "Rushbrook Williams". He was evidently an important civil servant in British India and a major historian of the subcontinent. However he was not actually in Geneva in 1920 nor did he have any expertise on Albanian affairs, and if Ranji hoaxed Fry then he may have done the same to Professor Rushbrook Williams. JH (talk page) 21:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
The bishop may well have been this guy: Fan S. Noli. If that article is correct, it seems to demolish the first of the three points. JH (talk page) 21:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
JH, your point concerning the Bishop is well taken. My objection regarding Zogu resulted from a misunderstanding of the date of the offer - your previously stated account regarded the Albanian offer coming from 'gratitude for getting Mussolini out of Corfu', which occurred in 1923, when Zogu was the Premier and presumably would have had to approve any offer of the throne for it to be valid. But it now seems that 1920 was the date, when Zogu was, while prominent, not in a position to veto any offer. It further seems that Lord Headley was indeed offered the throne - his Wiki page doesn't mention it, but Time magazine, among other reasonably reputable sources, does. In conclusion I'd say that the offer is neither definitely plausible nor implausible and the truth is likely to remain elusive. Right now the article raises the possibility but lets the reader make up their own mind. I'm comfortable with leaving it as it is. (Unless somebody can find a history of Albania that mentions it). Hughteg (talk) 01:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I think that we have reached agreement. :) Incidentally, I don't know where the reference to 'gratitude for getting Mussolini out of Corfu' came from, but it wasn't from me. JH (talk page) 10:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Literary Man

In the introduction we mention that he was a writer, editor and publisher, but we don't seem to have anything on those activities in the body of the article, apart from one picture. Any volunteers to write a paragraph or two on this? JH (talk page) 21:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I've now written something. JH (talk page) 19:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Averages in Fry's era

The article avers that Fry's batting average of fifty was "a particularly high figure for an era when scores were generally lower than today". How true is this, though, of the age in which batting, riding the crest of W.G.'s mighty wave, truly found its feet? Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 11:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

A good question. Though many pitches were good by the late 1890s, I think because they were uncovered there were more rain-affected, difficult pitches than today, so that averages tended to be rather lower. JH (talk page) 17:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
You're not doing a Robert on me, are you? What's this "JH" business? Robertson-Glasgow (talk) 09:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 :) It's what I've been using all along as my Wiki sig. JH (talk page) 10:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Books by Fry

I am almost sure I remember that Fry wrote a novel too -- called, I think, "A Mother's Son". Does anyone have more information? jake b (talk) 20:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right. According to his Wisden obituary, which is reproduced in his profilee on Cricibnfo: In collaboration with his wife, he wrote the novel A Mother's Son which was published in 1907. I've now added it to the article. JH (talk page) 20:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)