Talk:Byzantine-Bulgarian Wars
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Whoever wrote this article has only vague knowledge on the subject. To say that the Bulgarians "usually lost" from the time of Asparukh's reign to that of khan Krum is ridiculous and I encourage the author to read up on the victories of khan Tervel over Justinian II, and the battles fought by khan Kardam. The Byzantine emperor Constantine V was the only emperor to claim any significant millitary successes, and those never resulted in territorial gains. I don't have time to revise the whole article, but do encourage if you ever want to write something in Wikipedia to at least put in the effort to read up on the subject that you are presenting.
Constantine V the only emperor to lead successful military campaign against the Bulgarians? What about the Macedonian dynasty? "Basil the Bulgar-Slayer"? Forget that one? 68.81.84.122 23:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)Bungus
My objection was to the time between Asparukh and Krum ('bout 100 years), during which yes - Constantine V was in fact the only one to actually win a battle. So two options - 1.)I was misunderstood, 2.) You have no idea when Basil II actually reigned.
Sorry, I got that particular bit of information from the 1997 Encyclopedia Britannica, in the article in the Macropedia on the Balkans. I guess that shows that they make mistakes, too. Maybe they should go wiki.Crispus 02:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Lol, Bulgarians in Edessa?
Bulgarian army conquering Edessa and killing its governor
No this picture caption is very wrong, the image itself says Thessalonika. The author should have seen that one.Tourskin 20:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC) Sorry again, saw my mistake.Tourskin 20:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Territorial Changes
I think it be more appropriate for the territorial changes to say something like "Both sides lost and regained territory several times." The Ottoman conquests were largely unrelated to the Byzantine-Bulgarian Wars, and so the territorial changes that resulted from the Ottoman conquests can't be seen as a result of the Byzantine-Bulgarian Wars.
- I think you are right. --Gligan 09:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Ivan Alexander’s defence of Bulgaria"
Not a good heading, considering that most of the section talks of offensive maneuvores and the Byzantine civil war. Emanuel Shapera 02:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- It was in fact defence, because the Byzantines were invading Thrace after they betrayed Bulgaria in their alliance against the Serbs. Ivan Alexander fought aggressively and took the initiative but in that way he only defended Bulgarian Thrace.
- But if you don't like that as a title, change it with something more suitable. --Gligan 09:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Philippopolis and terrritorial gains
Philippopolis was taken by the Bulgarians a number of times, including in Krum's wars, however, it never seems to have been retained by the Bulgarians for any considerable length of time. A number of Byzantine emperors settled Armenian and Paulician military settlers in the city. It was a Byzantine town in the reign of Nikephoros Phokas, as it was sacked by Svyatoslav of Kiev - had it been a Bulgarian town it would have opened its gates to him as Bulgaria had capitulated and the Bulgarian royal family were in his hands.
In most books the capture of various Thracian towns by the Bulgarians is noted but their subsequent return to Byzantine rule by treaty at a slightly later date is not. It is thought that the Bulgarians, who largely used a 'render in kind' and barter economy (Bulgaria was exempted from taxes in coin as late as the reign of Basil II), had difficulty administering towns and regions which enjoyed a full monetary economy and were usually happy to return them for a one off payment from the Byzantine treasury.
For an examination of this phenomenon see: The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century by John V. A. Fine.
Urselius 13:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- Plovdiv was taken during the reign of Khan Malamir (831-836) and the Bulgarians controlled the until the invasion of Knyaz Svetoslav in 969 which is more than 150 year, during which the Byzantines never approached in the vicinity of Plovdiv. Neither Plovdiv nor any city in northern and central Thrace showed any intention or willingness to join the Byzantine Empire in that period, and the Bulgarian did not had difficulties in administrating these regions. The only major Thracian town which was often captured by the Bulgarians but soon afterwards returned to the Byzantines was Odrin and I think it is mentioned everywhere that its capture was temporary. --Gligan 12:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Krum certainly conquered and retained control of Philippopolis, and many other Thacian towns, but these were returned to Byzantium by his successor Omurtag. Malamir and the Kavkhan Isbul took Philippi, probably in 836, west of the Mesta River in Macedonia, not Philippopolis in Thrace. Macedonia west of the Vardar seems to have fallen under Bulgar control from 846, certainly the area as far west as Ohrid was controlled by Tsar Boris. The only recorded 'permanent' Bulgar gains in Thrace was the region of Zagora, just south of the Balkan mountains between Sider and Develtus, by treaty, in 863. If Philippopolis was Bulgarian, why did Svyatoslav plunder it? The Bulgarian state had fallen under his control by this time and all the Bulgarian royal family were his prisoners. No provincial governor would hold out alone when his government and sovereign had already capitulated.
Urselius (talk) 22:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
- It seems that the provincial governors of the western parts of Bulgaria did not capitulate after the capture of the Emperor and the fall of the capital, so it is possible that the governor of Plovdiv may have followed their example (of comita Nikola and his sons). But according to me the Byzantines used the difficulties which the Bulgarians faced against Svetoslav and might have seized the city and the surrounding area. And even if that didn't happen, it is still possible that Svetoslav might plunder Bulgarian territory because that was the way that the armies were supplied with food in the Middle Ages.
- In fact in 970 (just before the fall of Preslav) the Asian army of Byzantium was defeated by the Bulgarians in the outskirts of Plovdiv (see the article for Samuil). That might mean that either the Byzantines had taken the city and were immediately defeated after that or they were defeated before even reaching Plovdiv. In both cases the city was lost for Bulgaria in 970-971 during that raid or during the campaign of Tzimisces.--Gligan (talk) 13:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
A couple of quotes:
Haldon, John, Warfare State and Society in the Byzantine World 565-1204 UCL press (1999). p.177.
" ... from the mid-790s Byzantine efforts also succeeded in stabilizing a Balkan frontier between the empire and the Bulgars, represented by a line of fortified posts (Philippoupolis, Beroea, Markellai and Anchialos), from which local officers could respond to threats independent of their strategos or Constantinople."
Fine, John, The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century, University of Michigan Press (1991). p. 186.
"The only place that Svjatoslav met resistance was at Philippopolis, a Byzantine city south of the Balkan mountains in Thrace and a center of the Paulicians. When it fell Leo the Deacon, probably with exaggeration, states that Svjatoslav impaled twenty thousand people."
Many of the fortified towns on the Thracian frontier of Byzantium seem to have remained outside the formal theme system for a very long time which tends to mask their continued existence as Byzantine outposts.
Urselius (talk) 20:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Before 681
I think a significant chapter, that this article is/would be missing, is one dealing with the wars between Byzantium and the Bulgarians (Bulgars) before the creation of the Bulgarian state on the Danube in 681. The Bulgars were an almost constant menace to the Empire's Balkan frontiers during the 6th century. There is an excellent online source - John Bagnall Bury: History of the Later Roman Empire. Bulgarian readers could look into Zlatarski, History of the Bulgarian State in the Middle Ages, Vol. I, Part I. Dobrin (talk) 16:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
