Talk:Business Plot

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[edit] Removed

The following two sources were removed from this article because they were Larouche related:

Best wishes, Travb (talk) 17:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "paradoxically Jewish"

I think this is a misusage of the word "paradoxically." I had tried to address this in a previous post, which was somehow deleted. The sentence itself seemed to be extraneous, so I deleted it. I meant to post it here for the consideration of everyone else, but I appear to have made a slight mistake. 24.184.52.69 19:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The article was anti-Jewish. I changed the sentence slightly. Travb (talk) 19:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you guys kidding? The whole story of this "plot" accuses Jewish financiers and a Jewish organization of conspiring to overthrow the U.S. govt. How much more anti-Jewish can you get? And apparently these are the same people who helped the Nazis and the Bolsheviks take power. Obviously I'm not in tune with this subject as you guys are but Spivak's (Spivak claims to be working against anti-Semitism) account[1] is blatant when it accuses Jewish financiers and a Jewish organization of being behind such an immense conspiracy. Why don't you guys call this insane story what you're reallying trying to say it is, "The Jewish Business Plot"? This is ridiculous. Jtpaladin 19:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BBC history program

There is a BBC radio program on this topic that might help with sourcing. Link. Hope this helps. Tim Vickers 02:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prescott Bush

I'm reproducing the quote from "The Whitehouse Coup" (23 July 2007) that I also entered on the Talk:Prescott_Bush#Failed_Coup Prescott Bush page.

Later in the McCormack-Dickstein report, a shipping company called Hamburg-America Line was accused of providing free passage to Germany to American journalists willing to write favorable copy on Hitler's rise to power. The company is also alleged to have brought Nazi spies and pro-fascist sympathizers into America. John Buchanan has studied this latest section of the report and has discovered that one of the company's managers came from a very famous family. "The thing that surprised me most was to discover in the documents of this company that Hamburg-America Lines had, in fact, been managed on the U. S. side at the executive level by Prescott Bush as part of a web of Nazi business interests that were all seized in late 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act by the U. S. Congress and Prescott Bush is the grandfather of the sitting President of the United States." [John Buchanan]

Of course, at the time it was perfectly legal to have dealings with Hitler's Germany. Prescott Bush was not called to account for this until America entered the war.

The McCormack-Dickstein report is "Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of Certain Other Propaganda Activities." United States Congress, House of Representatives. Special Committee on Un-American Activities.Dec 29, 1934. (73rd Congress, 2nd session. Hearings No. 73-D. C.-6). (Washington, Government Printing Office; 1935)

Some people are claiming that this does say that Prescott Bush was involved with the Business Plot, despite the fact that it is clearly talking about completely separate activities. My only guess as to how people are arriving at this conclusion is that they are assuming that the Business Plot is the only subject of the McCormack-Dickstein report. If that were true, then there might be some connection, but this assumption is false. The committee looked into many different activities, not just the Business Plot. Hence the name of the report, "Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of Certain Other Propaganda Activities."

The committee held hearings in six cities and took testimony from hundreds of witnesses. The Business Plot was not its only or even its primary focus of investigation. Notice how it says "Nazi Propaganda Activities". The Business Plot was not a Nazi (that is German government) operation. The BBC report is saying that Hamburg-America Lines was involved in Nazi activities, not the Business Plot.

If there is some other possible interpretation of this, or there is some other information, then explain it here in plain words before you change the main page to say that Prescott Bush was involved. There is simply no evidence for that.

Ken Hirsch 20:17, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The statement you deleted regarding Prescott Bush says: "A BBC documentary claims Prescott Bush, father and grandfather to the 41st and 43rd US Presidents respectively, was also connected." Following that statement is a link to the documentary which I listened to in its entirety. The statement you deleted is 100 percent accurate. The brief documentary (less than 30 minutes) is all about the "Business Plot" and underscores the fact that the individuals involved are hard to identify. In that context, they bring up Prescott Bush as a possible participant based on his background and activities. Given that the BBC is an authoritative source, stating that a) this documentary claims a possible connection to Prescott Bush and, b) the source (BBC audio) is linked to, why delete this section? It doesn't say Bush WAS connected, it cites a source that claims a connection, and links to that source. It is not an opinion or a personal point of view. By deleting that section readers are no longer allowed to determine for themselves as to the strength or weakness of the claim. Deleting the BBC claim and subsequent link obscures potentially useful information for the end reader. -- Quartermaster 15:45, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Explain to me the sentences that link Bush to the Business Plot. I've explained myself above. The BBC program quotes John Buchanan as to Bush's links to the Nazis. Buchanan's research is discussed on the Prescott Bush page and is on the web elsewhere. Nowhere does he claim that Bush was connected to the Business Plot, only that we was connected to Nazi business interests. The only link is that the Business Plot and Nazi propaganda activities were both investigated by the McCormack-Dickstein committee. The BBC program is called "Document" and the idea is that "The award-winning investigative series returns, in which Mike Thomson takes a document as a starting-point to shed new light on past events." So the program investigated the archives of the McCormack-Dickstein committee. As far as I can tell from the language they used (quoted above) and from all the other sources, the bit about Prescott Bush was included because it's a very interesting tidbit, not because it's connected to the business plot. I sent a message to the Document program from their web page (on 26 July) asking for a clarification. If they reply to me, I'll post it here, but hopefully they'll have something on their web site. But, seriously, look at the words they used. Bush is connected to Hamburg-America Lines which has Nazi ties. There is nothing in the program that links Bush to the Business Plot or Hamburg-America Lines to the Business Plot. In everything published about the Business Plot, it's always a native plot, cooked up by Wall Street interests. There's never been any hint of Nazi involvment. -- Ken Hirsch 17:27, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
The entire BBC piece was about the Business Plot. The mention of Prescott Bush and his activities in the context of such a piece seems to me a de facto implication of his possible involvement, and I find it plausible, intriguing, albeit not particularly damning. By totally deleting the mention of the BBC piece as well as the link to that same piece, you're set up as the sole arbiter of its importance and veracity. I trust most wikipedia readers to make up their own minds based on what's presented in an article, which is exactly what you've done. That's perfectly all right and I would like to have the article continue to extend that same courtesy to other readers. Debating about the BBC's veracity isn't the point. I can disagree with you (I do) but, again, that isn't the point. Your interpretation may have some validity, but your approach to the subject (deleting it) doesn't give anyone else the same chance to decide one way or the other. -- Quartermaster 18:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
It would seem that the BBC's own web page suggests that they intend the interpretation to be that Prescot Bush was involved:
The coup was aimed at toppling President Franklin D Roosevelt with the help of half-a-million war veterans. The plotters, who were alleged to involve some of the most famous families in America, (owners of Heinz, Birds Eye, Goodtea, Maxwell Hse & George Bush’s Grandfather, Prescott) believed that their country should adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression.
The added emphasis is mine. The quote is the BBC's summary. It is not unreasonable to ask them for clarification, but absent that, their summary would seem to be plausible evidence of editorial intent. I have no particular opinion on the veracity or accuracy of their story, but they do appear to have made the allegation. --Brons 17:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I think you finalize this point. I've restored the mention of Prescott Bush and the supporting link. Let the readers decide the veracity of the claim. The BBC claims the link, the restored statement merely reports that. -- Quartermaster 15:11, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree here, I was the one who first worded it that way to begin with before Ken removed it. It only claims a link and that's exactly what the sentence says. It is factual and NPOV. pschemp | talk 22:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


The following statement does not stand by itself, and should either be qualified or removed: The 2007 BBC radio documentary The White House Coup[3] alleged that Prescott Bush, father and grandfather to the 41st and 43rd US Presidents respectively, was also connected with companies owned by Fritz Thyssen. I'm no fan of anything Bushy, but unless there is some place where Thyssen is connected to something in this article, it just looks silly. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Misguided Ref removal

I moved this to talk:

Thomson, Mike (2007-07-23). The Whitehouse Coup. BBC. Retrieved on 2007-07-24.

I have no idea what it has to do with the plot. It is two pargraphs. 66.142.90.225 22:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Its a reference, that includes the author of the work. Please refrain from removing refs in the future. It has everything to do with this article. pschemp | talk 22:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with the business plot.
Here is the text of the BBC webpage:
Mike Thomson investigates claims that British colonial officials helped rig Nigeria’s pre-independence elections to ensure that a pro-UK party won.
The allegations centre on the cold war days of 1960 when fears were growing that communism was gaining ground in Nigeria, a country where oil had only recently been discovered. Two top secret files from the time are being kept closed for one hundred years.
Documents calls for them to be released on the FOI Act. Could it be that Britain taught Nigeria all it knows today about fixing the polls?
What does Nigeria's pre-independence elections have to do with the 1930's business plot?
I think you have the wrong link. Was this the link you wanted? : http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml
If so, this link is already correctly formated in footnote number 3. Which I just fixed with a web cite.
In addition, the Nigeria link is located in the wrong spot. In the ref section. [2] 66.142.90.225 01:01, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewording

"Some of Roosevelt's advisors were in on the plot, and downplayed it when it was exposed to prevent their dirty laundry from being aired in public."

Shouldn't this be reworded so it doesn't use a cliche?

Kazuko 17:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I've killed the little bastard stone dead. That and "sweep it under the rug". -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 18:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hoax

Unless the article is amended, the current text purports that events are factual without evidence. The article summary states

"The Business Plot, The Plot Against FDR, or The White House Putsch, was a conspiracy involving several wealthy businessmen to overthrow the presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1933."

This is not an undisputed fact of history but a proposition made foremost by Jules Archer (who, note, serves as a preponderance of the references.) This article needs to address Wikipedia's guidelines for Fringe theories, which it currently does not.

Further information: Wikipedia:Fringe theories

Unless the article is changed to foremost reflect that the scholarly consensus is that this is a conspiracy theory, then the article itself is part of that conspiracy theory, and the status of the article must be questioned. Quoting James Sargent "it is plausible to conclude that the honest and straightforward, but intellectually and politically unsophisticated, Butler perceived in simplistic terms what were in fact complex trends and events. Thus he [Jules Archer] leaped to the simplistic conclusion that the President and the Republic were in mortal danger." The wikipedia community is doing just what Archer did here unless this article is rewritten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.188.197 (talk • contribs)

First of all, sign your posts please, using ~~~~. Second of all, it appears like you have not read the entire article, particulalry the congressional findings on record. Your conclusion is without evidence, the text is factually supported. Travb (talk) 18:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

"Second of all, it appears like you have not read the entire article, particulalry the congressional findings"

'It appears like' your education is limited; this topic is likely out of your depth. 'Paticulalry', urk. Say hello to all of them at www.democraticunderground for me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.77.147.8 (talk) 04:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Congressional reports do not scholarly evidence make.

Congressional reports can be wrong. As this is a highly controversial subject, it requires the evidence and the peer review of the subject be quite thorough. (The evidence is so weak that this congressional report was even disregarded in Washington at the time, hence the lack of 'cause celebre') For instance, the Bush administration has created numerous committees which have concluded that global warming is not occurring. It does not follow, however, that simply because a government agency makes a public statement, it is truth and fact itself. The overwhelming peer review and analysis of the subject have NOT supported the claims of the conspiracy. If they have, and these sources can be sited, I will rescind my objections to this article. As of yet, none has been presented, and instead name calling, inflamed point of view editing, and fringe and conspiracy theories are implicated. What is generally accepted, is that this is a conspiracy theory. If wikipedians wish to demonstrate otherwise, which I fully support, please offer ample evidence. Until that time, please correct the article to indicate this is not a generally accepted historical fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.188.197 (talk) 17:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

You have added nothing to this article except a {{hoax}} tag. Don't make up requirements for wikiarticles. Lets be honest there is no hurdle high enough that other wikiauthors can jump which would make you change your tune. Fortunatly, several wikiauthors disagree with you. If needs be, you can request an RfC so we can finally find out how discredited your views and unfair standards for articles are.
What peer analysis? What peer review? Again, you have added nothing to this article, so your words seem a little empty. Go ahead and quote some of the ditractors in this article, detractors which, by the way, I proably added. And I can clearly show that those detractors credentials are not as solid as a large congressional committee which spent dozens if not hundreds of hours weighing all the evidence. Travb (talk) 02:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
First off, I am not claiming that the event was a hoax, I am claiming that the article, by purposefully being misleading, falls under the definition of a hoax.
Secondly, you're correct that I have not added anything to this article, other than the hoax tag, primarily because I do not have the time to do this article justice, but felt, nonetheless, that it was the responsible thing to do to bring some recognition to what I believe are it's gross inadequacies. Secondly, after reviewing the edits made previously to the article, I noticed an ongoing attempt to censor editors. For instance, the word "alleged" was added and removed from the initial article description several times, and the word was claimed a weasel word (which I disagree with; "alleged" clearly delineates that the conspiracy is not unquestioned fact). Under those circumstances, I felt similar edits would simply be censored.
Also, I did not make up the requirements for wikiarticles. They are clearly stated on numerous guideline pages. For example see WP:REDFLAG. Given these circumstances, and the history of this article, I'd like follow your suggestion and open the article to RfC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.188.197 (talk) 16:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
RE a RfC, power too you. Again, what peer analysis and peer review? You wrote: "overwhelming peer review and analysis of the subject have NOT supported the claims of the conspiracy." Extrodinary claims require extrodinary evidence. Your own words. You continue to put down the dozens of references in this article, but you have not shown any knowledge of this topic at all. It is really easy to criticize a group of people's work, as you have done, it is harder to actually add some work of your own. Again, what overwhelming peer review and analysis?
Allegedly: Weasel_word#Generalization_using_weasel_words. I find that there are a couple of editors in less known articles like this one which substantally contribute to the article, and then there are a larger group of editors who add tags to the article and try to add their own spin to the article in the opening paragraph. The "allegedy" argument I gave up on a long time ago, it is a minor argument fought against minor contributors to this article. I could care less about whether the word is in the article. Travb (talk) 08:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Historical accuracy

Does the article portray the accepted historical view? How do other history and encyclopedic text treat this subject, and what scholarly evidence supports claims to the contrary of these texts. If this article does not support the general accepted view, does the article make that standpoint clear enough?

A set of guidelines I find helpful in matters such as these, is Carl Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit. I've noticed this article shows numerous fallacies outlined in the kit. For example: "Ad hominem, attacking the arguer and not the argument" - the talk page is replete with numerous such occurrences ; "Arguments from 'authority'" - References are based primarily on a congressional committee, and Archer's book; "Lack of independent confirmation of the facts" - self explanatory; "Argument from adverse consequences" - feelings that the article must be kept as is, because not to do so would be a coverup of some sort, etc.
Given such red flags and the lack of agreement on the subject, I believe that the article lacks the proper skepticism. A suggested introduction paragaph might state, "The Business Plot, The Plot Against FDR, or The White House Putsch, is a theorized conspiracy involving several wealthy businessmen to overthrow the presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1933. Although generally not accepted by mainstream historical sources, there has been much debate and research attempting to discern if such a conspiracy ever actually occured. 65.96.188.197 18:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Is 'the accepted historical view' in some way related to Wikipedia policies and guidelines? I thought articles were supposed to adhere to a WP:NPOV, not 'the accepted historical view'. Please explain. Dlabtot 22:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
"The accepted historical view" as I understand it means "from NPOV sources". In other words, an article which primarily source POV texts, cannot itself be considered, NPOV. 15:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Anon, thus far all you have shown is an ability to add tags (hoax, controversial, and RFChist) and a understanding of wikipolicy.
Thus far, your "overwhelming peer reviewed articles" is nonexistent.
I love Sagan, and he would probably cringe at your abuse of his baloney detection kit. Sagan was first and foremost a scientist, meaning that views had to be supported by evidence and facts.
This article cites over 25 sources, 23 footnotes, including a congressional hearing and several historians, pro and con to the existence of the plot. In the Business_Plot#Historical_treatment section, four historians are listed.
And to support your opinion? Three tags.
Where is the documents which support your view? The peer review artiles which overwhelmingly consider it a hoax?
It appears all you are interested in is the first paragraph, changing the introduction to meet your own POV with no citations or references. Travb (talk) 08:54, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Travb, please note the subject of your first sentence is "you". The above comment is the definition of Ad hominem. But, I do not want to fall into the same trap, so I'll make no further personal comments. Also, I think the point of this RfC is not for the two of us to go at each other. Clearly we disagree, hence the need for outside insight.
My edits (or lack thereof), does not mean that the above questions are not worthy of answers. It is my honest understanding that the subject is not treated in other encyclopedias such as Britannica, as it has been in Wikipedia, because it is not an accepted historical fact that a conspiracy to mount a coup occurred as portrayed here. Also, I have previously stated that the sources and footnotes cited, in my understanding of verifiability requirements that make a good article, are not sufficient. The four historians listed in the section you mention all doubt the veracity of the story. I see no other non-bias historians in the pro. Archer and Schmidt are book authors and are not viewed as scholars in the field.
Also, it is not my duty to add citations with opposite viewpoints. I could for example create a page on the existence of UFOs, followed by hundreds of citations from various authors, news, and media reports, etc stating the the UFOs are alien vessels. Does that mean the page should be allowed to indicate that UFOs are truly spaceships from other planets, simply because someone does not cite references in the opposite? The verifiability requirements are set precisely to avoid such situations. This is an encyclopedia first, and should not aim to cover all points of view. Sources need to come primarily from neutral points of view.
I support whatever edits to this article would portray the events as they are portrayed in other respected historical and encyclopedic texts. 15:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Anon editor, please read WP:NPOV, WP:CITE and especially WP:V. Your opinion that the article is not 'historically accurate' is irrelevant. Dlabtot 15:54, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually it is relevent, and I have read those pages. To quote the fringe theory guidlines WP:FRINGE:
"We propose these guidelines in the belief that an appearance on Wikipedia should not make something more notable than it actually is. Since Wikipedia self-identifies primarily with mainstream opinion, and because other mainstream sources often view our project as a contender for mainstream status, it is important that Wikipedia itself not become the notability-validating source for these non-mainstream theories. If another, adequately well-known source discusses the theory first, Wikipedia is no longer the primary witness to notability. Furthermore, one may not be able to write about a subject in a neutral manner if the subject completely lacks mainstream discussion. If all available sources are not neutral but instead put forward a point of view, an article on the subject may risk violating the No original research policy.
Mainstream here refers to ideas which are accepted or at least somewhat discussed as being plausible within major publications (large-circulation newspapers or magazines) or respected and peer-reviewed academic publications. This should be understood in a commonsense sociological way and not as an attempt to create a rigorous philosophical demarcation between "mainstream" and "non-mainstream", which may well be impossible. We leave the finer distinctions to the philosophers (see demarcation problem). Fortunately, the authors of non-mainstream theories often explicitly proclaim their non-mainstream status in one form or another (for example, by arguing that they are ignored because of some great conspiracy, because other practitioners aren't ready to accept their truths, or other similar arguments)." 16:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, the problem is, that as an editor who has not provided any citations from reliable sources, you appear to be the one pushing a fringe theory. Dlabtot 17:01, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Again, I'll keep repeating myself. There is no responsibility to provide citations to indicate that an article itself does not have the proper citations for the given content. It would be nice if someone could address the questions posed by the RfC, or explain without personal attacks, why the questions do not have merit.17:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.188.197 (talk)
The 'questions posed by the RfC' are without merit because The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source.' Whether or not the article is in your opinion 'historically accurate' is indeed completely irrelevant. Additionally, please do not remove signatures on this talk page that have been added by SineBot, as you did here. Rather, please do follow talk page guidelines by signing your posts with four tildes. Dlabtot 18:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I was cleaning up my accidental clicking submit without a sig, then hitting the back button and adding a sig and minor edit, not attempting to "cover up" anything. Sorry, I'm human.
And the questions of historical accuracy is relevant precisely because the article in question attempts to portray history. If the article is not historically accurate, in that it does not contain reliable mainstream sources to corroborate it's statements, then how can we allow the article to portray something as historical fact? How can you argue that it's unimportant for an article on an historical event to be historically accurate?? When Wikipedia's guidelines on verifiability talk about articles being verifiable and not "truth", it's making the point that it's nearly impossible to make the case that anything is "truth". When I check my reliable source, Britannica, I find no similar treatment of the events.
I am not asking for the truth here, only for reliable, NPOV, mainstream sources, all requirements dictated by Wikipedia's own guidelines, and lacking in this article. 65.96.188.197 18:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Dlabtot, I suggest we ignore the anon. Over the past year wikipedians come to the talk page and voice their opinion. I usually ignore it. I should have ignored it here to.

65.96.188.197 claim that "overwhelming peer review and analysis of the subject have NOT supported the claims of the conspiracy." is a complete fabrication, he obviously knows little or nothing about the plot.

There are several people here who have protected this wikipage from users like 65.96.188.197. Travb (talk) 19:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

He requested comments, I commented. Dlabtot 19:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your work on this article. Travb (talk) 19:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

If you feel the need to protect this page from contributions and open discussions, there's nothing more I can say to you. I have been open, and attempted to engage insightful discussion, not vandalize, disparage, or otherwise be harmful/hateful. If my editing as anon is your only issue, I have created an account, which I will use for all my contributions in the future. I hope that other well meaning Wikipedia readers and editors can post something helpful here. CandleInTheDark 19:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Welcome officially to Wikipedia your handle is my favorite non-fiction book ever. I have a copy in the car, and I sent another one to my religious parents. Travb (talk) 03:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't get the UFO analogy. If you were the only one who'd ever written this UFO wiki you hypothetically speak of, and no opposing viewpoint references are ever given, and there are many pro viewpoint references, why wouldn't that wiki have the right to implicitly take a pro-alien UFO stance through its simple lack of participation by others? It might need a tag at the top saying it’s incomplete and needs more participation, but the whole existence of Wikipedia arises from diverse user participation and continued development of all wikis according to simple standards. You're not to give your personal opinion on whether you think UFOs are alien spacecraft but are neither obligated to state what percentage of the articles in a particular field's mainstream scholarly journals agree.

Seems to me the "alleged" wording is an attempt at a viewpoint in and of itself. Everything is alleged. You’re quoting Sagan and mentioning science, but forgetting the obligation of the listener/reader to remain objective and test things for themselves. They are not tools for determining the real gospel verses the fake gospel. It’s an exercise, after which it is everyone’s job to figure it out, empirically validate it themselves, or simply choose not to conclude anything. Science and objectivity rejects the validity of dogma and gospel truth outright. You are better off wording the first paragraph in a completely neutral way that neither implies controversy nor mainstreamness. It should first simply summarize and inform what this topic is. Nothing more.

The conservative historical viewpoints belong in the body, alongside all the other viewpoints. Wikipedia welcomes both the outdated academic curmudgeons, modern journalists, and wacko theorists references, all. Neither should be influencing the top paragraph’s general slant nor informing as to the controversiality of the subject. The controversy should be apparent in the substance and diverse, cited arguments themselves, rather than generalized as a warning or proviso against one side or the other in the beginning.

If the article is incomplete & one-sided or has lacked diverse participants, then there are tags that can be put up top for that. But if you are complaining about that and there is a large group of participants already, I would think you should probably be adding the opposing points to the body rather than trying to essentially change the tone of the article. ~Reticuli —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.178.144.4 (talk) 08:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bush American Liberty League member?

I removed the phrase describing Prescott Bush as an "A.L.L. member". No reference was given and I doubt any exists since I know that John Buchanan was trying to to find out if Bush was a member. I have an email from Buchanan from 30 July 2007 which says "I spoke to thge DuPont museum that has the ALL documents. Their verdict was they can neither confirm nor deny Prescott's involvement in ALL." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ken Hirsch (talk • contribs) 21:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality and balance

This article states as plain fact events which are greatly disputed by many historians.--Pharos 07:14, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

If that is true, you should have no trouble citing reliable sources to that effect. So please do so. Tell us who these historians are, and cite those reliable sources in which they present their views. Dlabtot 19:14, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Can you give me a list of events in this article "Stated as plain fact" which are disputed? This article cites testimoy of Butler, and states that it is only his testimony. This article mentions historians who believe Butler, and those who do not. No one argues that Butler testified in a congressional hearing. Travb (talk) 23:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Pharos, since you aren't discussing the issue, I'm gonna go ahead and remove the tag you placed. Please refrain from placing tags on articles unless you are willing to discuss the issue and reach consensus. (Cross-posted on User talk:Pharos) Dlabtot 20:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] which Morgan?

J. P. Morgan links to someone who died in 1913. Was it J. P. Morgan, Jr. who was accused in the plot? —Tamfang 09:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

J.P. Morgan & Co. - not a person, a company. I changed it. Dlabtot 10:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Extremist site is asking folks to visit this article

Fyi, This extremist hate site www.democraticunderground is soliciting visitors to this article. You can read the whole thread here. [3] Just something to be aware of in case there are "unusual edits". 64.102.254.33 (talk) 16:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

As long as editors follow WP:FIVE they are welcome to edit Wikipedia. Even if in your opinion they have visited a 'hate site', lol. Dlabtot (talk) 17:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
How do you figure Democratic Underground is an extremist website? Hate website? Pretty odd standards. [4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blortock (talk • contribs) 22:37, 23 December 2007
Thanks for the "heads up" 64.102.254.33 (talk). As an avid defender of wikipedia culture and neutrality I was pleased to see some wikipedia haters weighing in directly on the DU thread you pointed to. They are appropriately pointing out the risks of organized editing by outside groups, something the extreme haters from Free Republic and Little Green Footballs should keep in mind as well. -- Quartermaster (talk) 13:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I find those who yell extremist the loudest are often extremists themselves. User:64.102.254.33 I wouldn't worry about the DU posting, the person's message is muddled and incomprehensible. Trav (talk) 14:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)