Talk:Bushwhacked (Firefly)
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[edit] Bushwhacked & Rime of the Ancient Mariner
I suggest you read the article for the poem (or the poem itself, if you have the time). While Wikipedia is not the place for original research, I am not making a very sophisticated level of literary analysis to make this comparison. I'm talking about the major themes in Rime, which are clearly also present in this episode (and the series at large, as the article for the poem mentions). It's reasonable to assume this was deliberate, since Mal refers specifically to the poem in Serenity. I've seen reasonable speculation of this sort on Wikipedia before, and I think it has a place in the article. -Juansmith 18:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
- Can you copy the text you wanted to add to here so we can analyze/take a gander? Thanks! plange 18:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
- Here is the passage I originally added:
- This episode shares many themes with the Coleridge poem, The Rime of the Ancient Mariner. The derelict ship had themselves encountered a 'ghost ship' of sorts (the Reavers). As a result, all but one of them were killed, and the one survivor was reduced to a fate worse than death. Ultimately, the derelict ship is destroyed (in the poem, the ship gets sucked into the sea by a whirlpool). The key difference is that the lone survivor in Rime lived and wandered the earth forever, and in this episode, the sole survivor is killed.
- However... (see below) -Juansmith 20:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
- Here is the passage I originally added:
- Also, since in Serenity it IS explicitly stated, we'e been meaning to add that to the themes section. Would you be willing to add that there, just sticking to what is revealed in the movie, but keeping in mind that we cannot speculate or analyze outside of what is plainly seen or heard on screen. Thanks! plange 18:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
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- Unsourced analysis, assumptions (reasonable or not), and speculation do not belong in Wikipedia. The fact that many articles have them is not a license to expand upon this error. (Do we vandalize because others have?) There are fundamental reasons why such material is not supposed to be added, and should be removed whenever found. (A less drastic measure is to tag such a passage with {{fact}}, requesting a reliable source, especially when it's reasonable to think that such a source can be provided.) The theme sections of many TV-show articles are a plague, encouraging such fan-written essays. It does not matter if they are accurate or well-written. What matters most is if they are sourced, which they almost never are (or not sufficiently so). It is reasonable to cite Mal's use of a passage from Rime, and even describe what it's about (in someone else's words, cited) to allow readers to draw their own conclusions. It is not reasonable to write about a general theme on the subject. (If a reliable source — say, Joss in an interview — has made specific statements about this, it's okay to quote him.) Sorry, folks. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 19:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, thanks for backing me up. Sometimes it's lonely out there in the black plange 19:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sounds like a fair assessment. I think it still has merit, but I'll not repost it unless I can find a source to back it up. As for the "themes" section, plange, I'd be happy to do that at some point, although I'm not sure how that's any different in the way of speculation... I mean, it's not as if there's been a great deal of peer-reviewed, academic writings (or even newspaper articles) on the subject of Firefly that can be cited... Anyway, that's a topic for another Talk page, so I won't get too far into it. Thank you for your responses. -Juansmith 20:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
- Cool. What I meant for the Serenity (film) article is exactly what Jeff has above: "It is reasonable to cite Mal's use of a passage from Rime, and even describe what it's about (in someone else's words, cited) to allow readers to draw their own conclusions." Also, don't despair on sources; I'm eagerly awaiting the Firefly Companion book coming next month which might give us what we need to flesh out Themes. Also, has anyone explored the "space whores" book to see it it discusses any themes? I can't afford to buy it yet, but it's my next purchase plange 20:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
- I'd never heard of either book prior to just now. Thanks for the heads-up. -Juansmith 22:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
- Real title is: Finding Serenity: Anti-Heroes, Lost Shepherds and Space Hookers in Joss Whedon's Firefly
- Ah, I had heard of that one. Just never heard it referred to as the "space whores" book :) -Juansmith 17:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
- Real title is: Finding Serenity: Anti-Heroes, Lost Shepherds and Space Hookers in Joss Whedon's Firefly
- I'd never heard of either book prior to just now. Thanks for the heads-up. -Juansmith 22:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
- Unsourced analysis, assumptions (reasonable or not), and speculation do not belong in Wikipedia. The fact that many articles have them is not a license to expand upon this error. (Do we vandalize because others have?) There are fundamental reasons why such material is not supposed to be added, and should be removed whenever found. (A less drastic measure is to tag such a passage with {{fact}}, requesting a reliable source, especially when it's reasonable to think that such a source can be provided.) The theme sections of many TV-show articles are a plague, encouraging such fan-written essays. It does not matter if they are accurate or well-written. What matters most is if they are sourced, which they almost never are (or not sufficiently so). It is reasonable to cite Mal's use of a passage from Rime, and even describe what it's about (in someone else's words, cited) to allow readers to draw their own conclusions. It is not reasonable to write about a general theme on the subject. (If a reliable source — say, Joss in an interview — has made specific statements about this, it's okay to quote him.) Sorry, folks. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 19:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I have to apologize. I've been so busy on other things, my Wikipedia work has been squeezed down mostly to calls for sourcing and cross-project article issues with Wikiquote. I've been meaning to read the Firefly books (all of which I have, except this new book I hadn't heard about), but I've been too pressed for time. It'll probably be another couple of months before I'll be of more concrete use to the domain of Wikipedia:WikiProject Firefly. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
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