Talk:Burt Reynolds

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    Reviewed version: August 30, 2007


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    [edit] GA fail

    As it stands, most of the article reads like a list of his film roles, but with a bit of prose. Not very comprehensive. You need to do a lot more research with those external links at the bottom to have this reach GA level. Alientraveller 17:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Turd Fergeson

    Nick Zavarella, who is huge fan a mr. reynolds changed his name to turd fergeson in honor of mr. reynolds nick name on celbrity jeopardy —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tjsap21 (talk • contribs) 00:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Reynolds' ancestry

    I've corrected the mention about his Italian ancestry, citing a full-length 1982 book biography (Streebeck, Nancy (1982). The Films of Burt Reynolds. Secaucus, N.J.: Citadel Press, 11-12. ISBN0-8065-0785-3). It seems to explain how this misconception about him being Italian started: "[his] best pals were primarily the sons of fishermen along the canal, and most of them were Italian. There was no need for the police chief's namesake to explain his own heritage. On one side of the family, a full-blooded Cherokee grandmother, wife of a forestry ranger, who gave birth to his father on a North Carolina reservation; on the other side of the family, grandparents and mother of pioneer WASP roots, raised in and around central Michigan. Behind "the new boy in town," Burt doted on the immediate attention extended by his waterfront playmaytes. They assumed that he was also Italian, and Burt never corrected them. Pretending to be Italian was Buddy Reynolds' first inkling that a person could be whatever he wanted by merely projecting characteristics of a particular kind. He was acting. He liked it." Mad Jack 21:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

    I'd also ask of user User:Rogue Gremlin to comment on what he is reverting and why, as well as add to this particular discussion topic. Mad Jack 01:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

    Read the above discussions, as RogueGremlin mentioned (can't belive I'm defending him), we've been thru this before. And had got the site to a neutral state. Please stop! Lugnut215 20:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

    Lugnut215, there isn't any discussion above at all that supports the inclusion of his having Italian ancestry. The Italian thing is really the crux of my edit, because the Time article (which is over 30 years old) is the only reliable source that exists to support it. And there is a reliable source (a book biography with a credited author) that directed conflicts with it. I'd like to see if anyone has a copy of "My Life" (Reynolds' own book) and what he says about his ancestry in it. Mad Jack 05:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

    LoL, exactly Lugnut, who would have ever thought we would be on the same side of a burt disagreement, not to mention the book he is citing is not available to the majority of wiki users. His italian heritage should stand as it has been hashed thru before. Also the total bull stuff on his father being a cowboy, before becoming a cop. One book does not take away his heritage.Rogue Gremlin 18:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

    I don't consider mentioning he is part Italian to be "neutral" or factual at all. There is a single reference for this. Yes, it's a reliable reference, but there is also a reliable reference that directly contradicts this, and that one was written about 10 years after the first one. Availability to Wikipedia users isn't really a factor - besides, I found this book at my local library, so it's not exactly that rare. Either both claims about his mother's ancestry should be in the article, or neither - so, for the time, I'll remove the mention of his mother's ancestry. Reynolds has written a book biography - "My Life" - in 1994. It is available to search through on Google Books [1]. I can not find a single mention of any Italian ancestry in searching this book on G Books, although Reynolds does state that his mother's maiden name was "Miller" and that her great-grandfather Charles fought in the Civil War, which makes it highly unlikely that he was of Italian descent. If anyone has a copy of the book and can offer any more of what he states about the matter, that would help. BTW, my other edits included removing the "height" and "notable roles" sections, because they've been deleted from the Template:Actor and no longer appear. Mad Jack 05:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Just as a side to this discussion, myself and a few others have researched Burt's ancestry through a number of sources, and Census records bare out that his mother was NOT of Italian ancestry. No Italian surnames in her family going back to colonial times. However, Census records also conflict with the North Carolina info shown above. In all Census records, Burt's father was shown to have been born in Michigan. The only Burt/Burton Reynolds born in North Carolina was born roughly 20 years before Burt's father in 1888. Also, Burt's paternal grandmother was Effie M. Thompson. She was also born in Michigan and is listed in Census records as "W" for white. You can see some of these Census images in the "Burt's Website" section above. JSDA 06:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

    A book available to be bought does NOT make it available to a majority of the public. You need to read up on those standards. It has to be available in a MAJORITY of libraries across the country. Which that book is NOT. And check your wiki facts, availability to wiki users is a factor.Rogue Gremlin 15:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

    I will remove height and notable roles from the boxRogue Gremlin 15:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
    "And check your wiki facts, availability to wiki users is a factor" - this does not seem to be stated in any policy page. Please read WP:Reliable sources and WP:Citing sources. There is nothing there about availability in "Majority of libraries" (and how would "majority" be established anyway?). It does state "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers". In this case, the publisher is Citadel Press, which according to its Wikipedia article, is a sub-section of Kensington Books, "the largest publisher in the United States that is not considered one of the six "major publishers"". So, once again, I am removing this from the article; I have no problem with stating nothing about his mother's ancestry if there are two conflicting sources about it. Next, it does not belong in the opening paragraph either way, see WP:MOSBIO - "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". What we seem to be doing is repeating what was almost certainly a mistake of Time magazine's from 36 years ago. Have you read Reynolds' autobiography? What does he state in it about the matter? Mad Jack 18:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

    I will find the link to the policy on books. It was given to me when i used a book that was out of print and not avail in most libraries. And how to find out the libraries it is in is easy if you know how to use a computer.Rogue Gremlin 19:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

    The book passes the WP:RS criteria of being published by a major publisher. Once again, you included this information in the header of the article as well, which WP:MOSBIO clearly states shouldn't be done. Also, be warry of WP:3RR - if someone reverts an article more than 3 times in the span of 24 hour, they may be subject to be blocked from editing for a time (this applies to both of us). Mad Jack 19:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

    You have already reverted 3 times also read the 1st paragraph here. [2] it does not pass and will be reverted. There are 117,000 libraries in the U.S. the book is available in LESS than 1500.Rogue Gremlin 19:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Enough is enough

    I have requested for a page protection notice for this page until this stuff above is resolved. FamicomJL 20:00, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

    There is a few things he added that had long been agreed upon to leave out to keep this article in a NPOV, We agreed to leave out his father's middle name as there are several discrepencies, as to whether it is Leon or Milo. Also where his parents were born doesn't really belong here. Then a proper citation was removed of her italian heritage, to be replaced with a SUPPOSED citation of her not being part italian. Which is why the only thing that needs to be there are her parents names (minus his dad's middle name). not their lineage or places of birth.Rogue Gremlin 20:34, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
    I've removed a couple of sentences here: [3]. If there's anything that was important and I shouldn't have removed, leave me a note on my talk page please. · AndonicO Talk 21:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
    For the record, please note that the word "POV" doesn't apply to the topics we seem to be discussing - that someone's middle name is "Milo" or "Leon" or that someone is of Italian ancestry is either a fact, or it isn't a fact - it's not an opinion. I have no qualms about removing his father's middle name. I didn't know it was a topic of contention. I don't have a strong opinion about keeping or removing the places where his parents were born, although I do think the fact that his father was born on a Native American reservation is notable. There is nothing "SUPPOSED" about my citation, it passes WP:RS because it is a published, full-length book with a credited author and coming from a major publishing house, and I have followed all the steps in WP:Citing sources in placing a proper citation that includes all relevant information about the book, including the year, ISBN, and exact page numbers. Of course it passes WP:V because the information has been published in a reliable source ("books published by respected publishing houses"); whether or not a specific Wikipedia user can or can't immediately find a copy of the book is not relevant. I'm not sure how this library thing relates to anything - am I expected to make a list of all the libraries in the United States, find out which of them have a copy, and then calculate a percentage that may or may not pass User:Rogue Gremlin's criteria? It's a silly throwaway part of this discussion. Anyway, I proposed two things above in regards to the Italian issue:
    1. Say nothing about his mother's ancestry at all in the article.
    2. Consult Reynolds' full-length book autobiography to see what he says about his ancestry.Mad Jack 22:23, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

    Thanks for taking the time to look into things and correct them AndonicORogue Gremlin 01:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Unprotect?

    I think it's safe to unprotect this page now, since Rogue Grelim has been blocked from editing for about three months, and I myself am perfectly content with the version that's currently there (under protection), so I plan to make no further edits to the article for a long time. Mad Jack 01:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] link to movie Heat 1986

    some of the links on the table are not direct enough the movie heat links to the wiki page for "Heat" and not the movie "Heat (1986 film)" Samba pa ti 19:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

    Thank you for the notice! I made that change. NCurse work 15:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Sockpuppet Warning

    For anyone whoe doesn't know, the longterm disruptive user known as Rogue Gremlin has been banned indefinitely from Wikipedia for using many sockpuppet accounts abusively. This user also edited this article as Aladdin Zane, and that account has also been banned indefinitely. (See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Rogue Gremlin and Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Aladdin Zane.)

    Considering that this editor has believed for a long time that he owns this article, and he has no regard for other editors' opinions (something I have noticed reading this talk page and seeing his various edit wars in the edit history), I suspect he will be unable to leave this article alone and will create more sockpuppet accounts so he can continue to revert other users' edits. By doing so, he will violate WP:BAN#Evasion and enforcement and WP:SOCK#Circumventing policy.

    In fact, he has already created User:TeaAreOhYouBeeElleEe for that purpose.

    I hope now that this disruptive editor has been caught, we can start improving this article, and that any "controversial" edits by new/unregistered editors will be looked at closely as they could be this Rogue Gremlin aka Aladdin Zane avoiding his well-deserved lifetime ban. Crazysuit 00:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

    I do not know what you are talking about. But I do know the consensus on the discussion on Burt Reynolds on TV was to Keep or merge, not to delete. From reading, it was only deleted as no one cited a policy, not because the consensus was to delete.TeaAreOhYouBeeElleEe 18:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
    The closing admin closed as 'delete'. -- Donald Albury 21:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Hi Crazysuit, I noticed you deleted a several paragraphs on the debate over Burt's birthplace with the note that Burt's official website now confirms he was from Lansing (which I agree with by the way, and there is far more evidence supporting this than just his official website). Anyway, if the background info (discussion page content) on the subject is going to be removed for this reason, shouldn't the article page no longer list his birthplace as 'disputed' and list it as Lansing? If left as 'disputed', its not hard to imagine this entire subject flaring up again without the background information that was deleted here. It would be my opinion that if the background info is going to be removed, the article page should show that he was born in Lansing. If the article page is going to continue to list his birthplace as 'disputed', then the background info should be left on the discussion page. My 2 cents anyway...comments? JSDA (talk) 05:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
    I created the 'disputed' note because RogueGremlin (see above) was raising such a ruckus over saying Reynolds was born in Waycross. It remains true that many sites on the Web (and an early unauthorized biography) give Waycross as his birthplace. We remain with the situation that both Waycross and Lansing can be verified from published sources. The issue then is one of reliability of the sources. I favor stating that Lansing is Reynold's birthplace, but we need to keep a footnote explaining why we regard the sources for Lansing as more reliable than those for Waycross. And this issue will always be subject to flareups; there are just too many people out there who 'know' that Reynolds was born in Waycross. -- Donald Albury 12:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Edits of December 12, 2007

    I have just restored material that is sourced from Reynold's biography, making sure that the citations are in place for every paragraph. I removed the flag from the infobox per the guidance at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (flags)#Not for use in locations of birth and death. I left out the citations to The Films of Burt Reynolds by Nancy Streebeck, as the material cited from it is vague, but seems to be already covered in the article,i.e.:

    1. Placing the statement that his father was police officer in the sentence about his birth implies that Burt's father was a police officer at the time. Per Reynolds' autobiography, his father became a police officer after the family moved to Riviera Beach. Unless the Streebeck book or another reliable published source specifically states that his father was a police officer when he was born, the claim should not be mentioned in connection with Burt's birth.
    2. The Streebeck book is cited as saying that "Reynolds' family lived in several Southern and Midwestern cities during his childhood". Two places in Michigan are already cited from his autobiography, so the Midwest is covered. As Reynold's autobiography states that the family moved directly from Michigan to Florida, a vague statement that he lived in "several Southern cities" needs something. If the Streebeck book names other cities, they should be specified. -- Donald Albury 01:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
    Does Reynolds's autobiography state that his mother was of Italian descent? This is one of the main claims that was discussed above, and I see the same source cited for it as before. Mad Jack (talk) 08:39, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
      • Someone has once again changed the birthplace info after Donald Albury set it. If its going to say 'disputed', the mounds of evidence showing that Burt was born in Lansing (vs. "I saw him say on tv that he was born in Waycross") should not be removed from the discussion page (the reference on the article page refers here for more information about the topic of Burt's place of birth). I almost wonder if the edit came from our old friend Rogue Gremlin because the edit definitely reads like his work. As for being of Italian descent on his mother's side, that was shown not to be the case in Census records, etc. going back to colonial times. This was included in the information that someone deleted from the discussion page. I knew this was going to happen. Somebody felt that the discussion page was too messy, so they threw the baby out with the bath water, and now we're having the same questions arise that were answered in the deleted information. (sigh) I'll wait to see if Donald wants to lock the article page again to prevent further birthplace edits. If the article page is left as disputed, I will repost all of the information showing that Burt was born in Lansing here. JSDA (talk) 23:17, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
    I will not be protecting the page. As an active editor on this page, it would be inappropriate for me to use my admin powers here. I left the birthplace as 'disputed' this time when I restored the material about Reynold's early life that is sourced from his autobiography. I inadvertently included the bit about Reynold's mother being Italian when I copied material from an earlier version to make sure that I included proper page citations to Reynold's autobiography. -- Donald Albury 01:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
          • I just noticed that an archive was created of the discussion on Burt's birthplace (at the upper right of this page), for anyone looking for further information on Burt's birthplace and discussion of his ancestry, there is a ton of information on the subject there (census records, city directories, newspaper articles, county birth records, etc.) JSDA (talk) 08:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)