Talk:Burj Dubai

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Burj Dubai article.
Article policies
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

This article uses British English dialect and spelling.
According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
Archive
Archives

One - Two - Three - Four - Five -


Contents

[edit] Why 649.7 m keeps being reverted

A Google search reveals 7 hits for this new height. Let's examine each one to see if it a reliable source as defined by Wikipedia's policies:

Reliable? - A blog. Wording is speculation. No source cited. ... Not reliable.
Reliable? - A forum. 649.7 m first mentioned in post #7184. No source cited. ... Not reliable.
Reliable? - A forum. Post #7201. Same user as in post #7184. Still no source cited. ... Not reliable.
Reliable? - A forum. Cites burjdubaiskyscraper as it's source. ... Not reliable.
Reliable? - A forum. 649.7 m first mentioned in post #6076. Wording is speculation. No source cited. ... Not reliable.
Reliable? - A forum. Most likely an archive of post #6076. Wording is speculation. No source cited. ... Not reliable.
Reliable? - A forum. 649.7 m first mentioned in post #137. Wording is speculation. Same username as at skyscraperpage.com. No source cited. ... Not reliable.

Then there's burjdubaiskyscraper.com (which hasn't even been scanned by Google yet) saying "2008.may.20 ... which makes the tower 649.7 m tall."

Reliable? - A blog. No source cited. ... Not reliable.

So what are we to believe? 4 of these sources are speculation and 4 seem to be more recent confirmation of that speculation. The earliest confirmation of the speculation would appear to have been from user BlackSmith! on skyscrapercity.com (post #7184) with no indication where he got that figure. What we actually have is data that cannot be verified from sources that don't qualify as a reliable source.

Astronaut (talk) 21:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

A closer examination of the skyscrapercity.com forum, suggests that it is one of the forum's moderators who announces the latest height. From what I can tell, there is a diagram showing heights and level numbers which the moderator updates from time to time. Maybe his day job is at the Burj Dubai site, maybe he works for one of the companies involved in construction - I don't know, but presumably he finds out which girders or frames are being erected and calculates the current height off of his diagram. BUT, the next girder or frame seems to be common knowledge amongst the forum members, so he's not the only one with this information. Whatever is the source, it sounds a lot like Wikipedia's definition of original research to me. Astronaut (talk) 06:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lock request

This article needs to be locked from edits by IP addresses (and if possible by other users that do not respect consensus). The amount of reverting and clean-up we have to do is just annoying and getting out of control. I also think we should not only lock this page for a limited amount of time, but for longer. This article constantly receives vandalism and undiscussed edits even when the Burj Dubai does not even reach any milestones. Is there any agreement or opposition to this proposal? Leitmanp (talk | contributions) 18:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Y Done. Requested just now. Astronaut (talk) 19:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Not quite the protection I had requested. But at least it'll give everyone a chance take a breather. Astronaut (talk) 00:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I know. I was surprised to find that I am also blocked from editing. But, as you say, it will help calm things down. I know this is a little too early but once the current block is over, will it be possible for this article to receive indefinite semi-protection? And what about blocking certain users (that have repeatedly made edits without any agreement or consensus) from editing the article? The first user that comes to mind is Maldek, but there might be one or two others that are just as persisent. Since this is not the last time people will try to update this article using unsourced data, it is probable that this article will undergo another edit war. I think having such protection will help prevent any further acts of vandalism or additions of inaccurate data. Leitmanp (talk | contributions) 04:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Once the full-protection is lifted, I strongly suspect the unsourced updates by anon/IP editors will return and probably continue until the building is topped-out later this year. If it gets to be too much of a problem like it did yesterday, we could ask at WP:RFPP again; but I'm not convinced the admins will be happy to semi-protect indefinitely - it kinda goes against the whole "encyclopedia anyone can edit" thing.
As for Maldek, after the bogus som.com reference incident I thought he had finally got the message about verifiable data from reliable sources. But alas, no. This time, perhaps we could try some arbitration process, but if I understand it properly, arbitration is not for resolving what the admins might consider a content dispute - they will probably say: instead of edit-warring, editors are expected to reach consensus through Talk Page discussion. Unfortunately, we pretty much have consensus on what is a reliable source for height and # of floors, but Maldek persists in ignoring that consensus. The page potection policy does allow for a block in these cases and I'm reluctanly coming round to the idea that a (temporary?) block might be best, but I would far rather Maldek read and understood Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and started contributing good quality, well referenced information to all manner of articles.
Astronaut (talk) 05:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay, well we will have to wait and see what happens. Thanks. Leitmanp (talk | contributions) 06:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Emaar makes ERRORS and Sources Conflict.

You say that Emaar is a reliable source but if you go to the official website the height is still 629.0 meters but you quote a height of 636 meters which does not appear on the Burj Dubai offical website. I understand that this 636 meters is on an article that Emaar released but although it says 636 meters it also says 2,064 feet not 2,087. Obviously Emaar said 636 meters and 2,064 feet but you put 2,087 feet so you are putting up false information. Another thing is that both Emaar sources conflict with each other as one says 629 meters and another says 636 meters. Since Emaar obviously does not know the conversion between feet and meters and they quote different heights on different sites they are unreliable as a source. It doesn't even say when the tower reached 636 meters. It just says the tower is over 636 meters and Emaar does not even list 636 meters on their offical Burj Dubai site. On top of that they claim the tower is both 636 meters and 2,064 feet right next to each other in the same article. Since 636 meters is not 2,064 feet which height is correct? 2,064 feet corresponds roughly to 629 meters another height that Emaar simultaneously claims on the Official Burj Dubai website. This leaves me to beleive that Emaar is not reliable source because of conflicts between its articles, outdated information, and inaccuries betwen feet and meters. They obviously have no idea what they are quoting. 636 meters and 2,064 feet are not the same thing! I suggest we stop using Emaar as a source and use www.BurjDubaiskyscraper.com because it is a much more reliable, accurate, updated, and clear source with thousands of pictures, videos, and links. Emaar gives us none of these pictures, diagrams or nothing.Maldek (talk) 21:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Emaar has not yet given an official height update of the Burj Dubai since 7 April. But, they did "let out" the height of the Burj Dubai in a press release concerning the amount of glass on the tower. Anything by Emaar is worthy of being used as a source. And of course there will be errors as the people that work at Emaar are humans, and (as I hope you know) humans make mistakes (both big and small) every day. As for the two different heights given in the cladding article by Emaar, clearly 636 m is the correct height while 2,064 ft is not. The height of 2,064 ft (629 m) was given on 7 April. As we all know, the tower has risen since then and I am sure that Emaar changed the height in metres but forgot to update the height in feet.
Also, as has been discussed before, www.burjdubaiskyscraper.com is not a reliable source even if it contains more information and images and such. Leitmanp (talk | contributions) 23:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Maldek, you seem utterly confused by what the issue here is in terms of reliable sources. The problem is we have no way to assess the veracity of burjdubaiskyscraper.com. They simply post heights etc and declare those heights to be so. Well, how do we know that? And where do they obtain this information? We don't know. Additionally, we don't know how accurate they may or may not be. Some here simply declare it to be "more accurate," without suggesting how they arrive at that conclusion. And, because it is a blog site, we don't generally ascribe "reliable source" to them as they have no track record as a reliable news-gathering source. Indeed, as I did before, there were numerous clearly misleading and inaccurate bits of information posted on this supposedly "reliable" blog.

You seem to be conflating two distinct things: reliable sources; accurate sources. In terms of "accurate," I or you or burjdubaiskyscraper.com are not in a position to declare who has the most accurate information, because we have no way to ascertain that. In terms of "reliable," we generally go with the source closest to the event in question. And those are the builders themselves. The point is not whether they are accurate, the point is that they are the closest source we have with an established connection to the building in question. You may be 100 per cent correct in asserting that burjskyscraper.com is always completely accurate. But they can't be considered, for the purposes of wikipedia, a "reliable source," even if they are an "accurate" source. We'd have to go to a news source with an established history for that, and this website doesn't meet the criteria. But they have, as I have earlier shown, demonstrated sloppiness and posted wrong information.

Besides, putting aside your correct point about the faulty conversion to imperial, emaar and burjdubai.com do not contradict each other, as one cites a height from April 7, the other from May 12. One is simply a more updated height than the other and, probably lacking any interest in an Imperial conversion, they didn't bother to change the feet. Whoopee. And, since burjdubaiskyscraper.com posted a height of 630.5 meters on March 27, which is higher than the height of 629 m quoted by the skyscraper's own website 11 days later, are we to defer to the blog site by your logic? Why? Because they quote to the tenth of a meter? Canada Jack (talk) 16:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe they removed a lunchbox or concrete pouring equipment.. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 12:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unlock it already

Let's stop this bullshit nonsense. everyone KNOWS already that BD is already the tallest structure EVER at more than 650m tall... Not facing the facts and changing it immediately, is just pure denial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.210.133.237 (talk) 19:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Prove it. --Golbez (talk) 19:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The "bullshit nonsense" is from those who insist on posting heights which don't come from sources which we can cite. When we get a height from one of the sites we can use as a source, the height will be updated. The lock is in place because some here simply can't accept this simple rule. Canada Jack (talk) 20:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's prove it with this picture: [1] We have the concrete part (as we know 585,7 m high) and on it 10 floors of steel beams (each 6,4 m), with last floor just starting (single beam on top). That makes 585,7 m + 10 * 6,4 m = 649,7 m. Proved.--Stefan040780 (talk) 10:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Prove the concrete section is 585.7 m high; prove the steel beams are 6.4 m each. Unfortunately, even if the calculation is correct, that type of calculation is called original research and therefore cannot be used. It is not about "truth" but what data is verifiable and from reliable sources. Astronaut (talk) 18:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
...... That is all. CompuHacker (talk) 17:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a new article [2] reporting a hight of 649 m "last week". Quote: "was last week measured at 649 metres tall.". THE REASON EMAAR HAS NOT YET MADE A BIG DEAL OF THE RECORDBREAKING HIGHT OF 649m IS BECAUSE OF A "HIGHER RANKING CONSTRUCTION WORKER's" DEATH. But as you can see in the article the tower IS reported to have a hight of 649 m. Now we have a reliable source!!! unlock please!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.217.130.176 (talk) 17:53, 28 May 2008

I dunno man, I think a reliable source requires at least 100 exclamation points. --Golbez (talk) 19:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I asked the author of that article of the National if he could give me a source we can cite and he answered it was a typo. JTLely (talk) 10:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] If Emaar made a mistake about the feet of Burj Dubai how do we know they didn't make a mistake about the meters?

Emaar claimed the Burj Dubai to be 636 meters and also 2,064 feet. Obviously we know that it is taller than 2,064 feet so we assume that Emaar made a mistake about the meters. Since 636 meters is equivalent to 2,087 feet. Isn't it then possible that since Emar made a mistake when they reported the feet that they also made a mistake when they reported the height in meters? As you say we are all human and humans to make mistakes. Since Emar made a mistake about the feet they could have also made a mistake about the meters. Maybe they meant 649.7 meters but they accidentaly wrote 636 meters. This could be very possible since we have already seen that they incorrectly added the wrong height for feet which they said was 2,064 feet. We're all human and make mistakes as you say, so why couldn't Emar make a mistake reporting the height in meters if in the same release they obviously made a mistake in reporting the height in feet. How do we determine what is a mistake? How do we know that Emaar didn't make a mistake in was trying to write 649.7 meters. They made a mistake in feet so they could also make one in meters. Who's to say? We all make mistakes.Maldek (talk) 22:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

2064 feet is 629 metres which is the height mentioned in a previous Emaar press release. Whilst I suppose it is possible they made a mistake in both metres and feet, the far more likely possibility is that they correctly updated the height to 636 metres and simply forgot to update the corresponding height in feet. This has already been pointed out previously here. Astronaut (talk) 23:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Gee, Maldek, perhaps they also reported an incorrect height when the conversion factor was correct! But it is not up to us to try to wade through who makes the more accurate claim here, we are simply reporting what was claimed by the closest sources. What can't you grasp here? Canada Jack (talk) 16:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As virtually every country outside the English-speaking world does not use the unit "feet" but the metric system, it seems unlikely that feet appear anywhere in the project but in English-language press releases and brochures. Thus one can be fairy sure that the height in meters is a (project-internally) well-known figure, while the height in feet is not, thus feet seems much more error-prone than meters. -- H005 (talk) 19:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think it makes most sense to post the figure of 629m, given that this is what two separate official websites put it as. Uranium grenade (talk) 11:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Delay

9 months delay due to increase of floors:Emaar Properties announced on June 10, 2008 that construction of the Burj Dubai was delayed by upgraded finishes and will be completed only in September, 2009.afp.google.com, 'Finishing touches' delay world's tallest buildinggulfnews.com, Burj Dubai completion delayed by another eight to nine monthsFred Durie, the executive director of Emaar Properties reported the reasons for the delay: “We are going higher, and this is one of the reasons why the project is delayed.” The building’s final height, on completion, was kept a closely guarded secret. Burj Dubai would also have as addition, a massive Dh 800 million (US $ 217 m), new fountain, 275 meters long and will shoot water 150 meters (or 50 floors) into the air, in a show with music and 6,600 lights with 50 colored projectors.thenational.ae, Burj Dubai will grow additional floors--Florentino floro (talk) 11:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)