Talk:Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

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To the statement that formerly read "The Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB) was kept within the Treasury Department and continues to operate the tax collection side," I added the qualifier "most of" with respect to tax collection. The new BATFE is still charged with tax collection under the National Firearms Act -- i.e., it still handles the gun taxes. --70.160.160.175 10:11, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

the New "BATFE" still is officially known by the acronym "ATF." Blondlieut 23:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Part of the reason is that "ATF" or "BATF" is a widely recognised acronym, while ATFE is the acronym of both the Association of Toolmark & Firearms Examiners (ATFE) and a religious group called ATFE.Naaman Brown (talk) 04:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

WRONG, Ruby Ridge started as a US Marshals operation, DUH--68.81.105.166 22:34, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wrong still. the initial ATF investigation into the goings on at Ruby are was caused the US Marshals to be involved in the first place. --Numerousfalx 04:55, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

They were outstanding ATF warrants, because there were violations of federal firearms laws, but there was no ATF presence in the actual operation. It's really rather common in law enforcement at all levels for outstanding warrants (of long standing) by one organization to be acted on by another, often with the knowledge or cooperation of the organization issuing the warrants. It's sort of the idea of an "outstanding" warrant, and the reason why there's a system for checking whether or not outstanding warrants exist. I don't believe there's ever been any serious question as to whether the warrants as issued were valid.Blondlieut 23:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah, there's been subsequent legislation, since the Homeland Security Act of 2002 (which moved ATF to Justice), that has since deleted the comma after "Firearms." The agency, for internal and external purposes, has never used the comma after Firearms, for any purpose.Blondlieut 23:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] ATF agents "harassing" firearm owners

On 21 June 2006, the following verbiage was added by an anonymous user:

Once Prohibition was repealed the ATF was forced to occupy the time of their now idle agents, the answer for this came when the National Fireamrs [sic; "Firearms"] Act was passed. Now all of these agents could occupy thier [sic; "their"] time by harassing firearm owners.

I removed this verbiage. This is blatant non-neutral POV and, as an unsourced statement, is unverifiable for purposes of Wikipedia. Sounds like a statement of opinion by someone with a bias against ATF agents. This is an encyclopedia. Let's keep it encyclopedic. Yours, Famspear 18:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed non-neutral POV

Dear fellow editors: I have made some edits to remove blatant non-neutral point of view in this article. In my opinion, this article probably should not be used as a dumping ground for verbiage that is blatantly either pro-gun control or anti-gun control, pro- BATFE or anti-BATFE. I argue that the purpose of a Wikipedia encyclopedia article on this government agency is not to criticise or commend the agency or its actions, but instead to be informative in a neutral way. Also, any statement of controversial "fact" should be supported with a citation to the source for the statement. Yours, Famspear 14:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unexplained language deleted

Dear fellow editors: On 14 July 2006 I deleted the following verbiage:

It is commonplace for sheriffs to allow BATFE to operate within their counties as if BATFE were regular law enforcement with the same standing as an elected sheriff.

This language is problematic for a number of reasons. First, from a legal standpoint Federal law enforcement officials (such as ATF agents, FBI agents, IRS agents, Secret Service agents, etc.) do not as a general proposition need to be "allowed" by local "sheriffs" -- or by any other local law enforcement officials -- to "operate" within the geographical boundaries of the United States of America -- which boundaries obviously include all the "counties" and parishes in the United States. Second, the phrase "regular law enforcement" seems to have been used in contradistinction with what presumably would be "non-regular law enforcement" -- whatever that might be -- a concept, the contours and relevance of which the user who inserted this verbiage failed to explain. Third, the phrase "the same standing as an elected sheriff" is enigmatic as well. What would it mean to say that a law enforcement official has the "same standing as a sheriff"? Why would that be important? The user who inserted this verbiage did not say. For example, is there such a thing as a "regular law enforcement" official who does NOT have the "same standing as an elected sheriff"?? Why is the "standing of an elected sheriff" supposed to be relevant or important to the duties of ATF agents? Let's be more specific in the article if we're going to have language like this in the article. To someone like me who has no pro- or anti- ATF bias, the entry just comes off as some sort of bitter, non-neutral POV attempt at a "slam" at the ATF. Non-encyclopedic in my opinion. Yours, Famspear 21:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is Celeta and what does it have to do with the "Glover case" or a "culture of cruel ineptitude"?

Regarding this paragraph:

The Jewish gun-rights organization JPFO accuses the ATF of manipulating evidence in the case of competition shooter John Glover and sells a video that allegedly proves the ATF "supports a culture of cruel ineptitude."[1] This case is notable as Celeta sells "80% Complete" guns, which are uncompleted firearms that require more labor to be functional.

It's unclear to someone like me -- who has no expertise or particularized interest in firearms or the ATF -- what the second sentence has to do with the first sentence. Presumably "Celeta" is a manufacturing or wholesaling or retailing company for firearms or parts of firearms. What does Celeta or its "80% Complete" guns have to do with the "case" of John Glover (whoever he is), and why or how is the "Glover case" "notable" with respect to Celeta and its products? Can anyone provide specificity here? The verbiage as written might make sense to someone who already knows a lot about ATF and firearms and Celeta and John Glover, but in my opinion most readers of Wikipedia do not fall into that category. Yours, Famspear 22:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

PS: The apparent footnote [1] reference after the word "ineptitude" in the article seems to lead nowhere when I click on it. Can anyone help here? Yours, Famspear 22:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I corrected part of the problem. There was a coding error that masked part of the text in the article, making it invisible. We now have two footnote references, and the missing sentence is now visible. But the links still don't work. So there might be another coding error (?). Yours, Famspear 22:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I have changed the coding on the footnote references so that they are operational. I express no opinion one way or the other on the reliability of the cited material. Yours, Famspear 22:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

To summarize, the material now reads:

The Jewish gun-rights organization JPFO accuses the ATF of manipulating evidence in the case of competition shooter John Glover and sells a video that allegedly proves the ATF "supports a culture of cruel ineptitude."[1]
More recently, the ATF raided gun parts manufacturer Richard Celeta of Dillon, Montana.[2] This case is notable as Celeta sells "80% Complete" guns, which are uncompleted firearms that require more labor to be functional.[citation needed]

The sentence beginning with "More recently, the ATF raided [ . . . ]" had been imbedded in the article but was essentially invisible because of a coding problem. Yours, Famspear 23:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of material apparently protected by copyright

On 8 August 2006, I removed a large amount of material placed in the article by an anonymous user at IP65.79.129.116. The material was apparently copied from other another source or sources without considering possible copyright violations. This material may have had as its source the web site:

http://jepoch.dth.jp/ww/www.atf.treas.gov/about/atfhistory.htm

which appears to be a U.S. government web site.

Copyright is apparently claimed by Oxford University Press, Inc., and the aforementioned web site states that the material was used with "permission." The fact that the copyright holder may have granted permission for use at that web site does not necessarily mean that the material can be legally copied and reproduced in Wikipedia or elsewhere. Yours, Famspear 19:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slight addition

Martee 99 on 08/21/06.

I did some minor editing to smooth the flow and condense some of the text. I added the reference to ATF predeccessor agency Alcohol Tobacco Tax Unit (ATTU) in the organizational history. I further enhanced the info regarding the agency' reassignment from Treasury to Justice Department.

With respect to the "Criticisms" section of the article, I find the passages not only poorly written and somewhat jaded, I contend that this whole section should be eliminated altogether. This particluar entry should neither be a forum for allegations of inappropriate government actions nor should it tout successful ATF investigations and convictions. Those events are more thouroughly documented in their respective articles, all of which presumably have links to the ATF. This article should merely served to inform the reader of ATF's governmental function and its position within the Executive Branch of government.

But I will defer to other editors to see if they agree with my opinion. I hate to see Wikipedia degenerate into a dumping ground for innumerable advocacies.

I've re-titled and rewritten the "Criticisms" section so that it at least has the patina of neutrality, but I concur that, notwithstanding my edits, it needs more, or should go. More deplorable still is the section that follows; basically one random ATF operation (that someone doesn't like) and one random ATF detractor group (that, oh, coincidentally is selling something). These two things together say nothing about the agency's work. Blondlieut

[edit] Legal Issues

"For this reason most firearms builders prefer to use fully manufactured receivers - 100% receivers - that must comply with the same federal regulations as a complete firearm.

Regardless of the receiver completion percentage the home made gun must comply with all relevent gun laws including restrictions on the numbers of imported parts, [1] barrel length, overall length, and cannot be convertable to a fully automatic weapon. [2]"

I'm not sure what the above has to do with ATF as an organization. Even discussion of the requirements of the federal gun laws themselves, seems to me, belongs under the gun laws in question (see the box), not under ATF.

I plan on deleting these, as I believe they are in the wrong location.

Blondlieut 20:00, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Blondlieut. The controversial aspect of this case does not appear to have anything to do with the BATFE. They are merely enforcing a federal firearms statue under their administration. Cafe Irlandais 19:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kenneth Ballew

Anyone want to do an article on this guy?

You are welcome to it, but it is not relevant in an encyclopedia article about the ATF. The article on Ballew can reference the ATF article, but it is not necessary or useful to post every single offense (real or otherwise) that the ATF has allegedly perpetuated in the ATF article. Izaakb 17:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why does one department get all the fun stuff?

Seriously, how does it happen that one unit gets so diverse a set of laws to deal with? I'm not now, nor have I ever been, a US subject nor citizen, so I'm asking in case there is a story there. Grant McKenna 20:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

This isn't your personal blog space. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 21:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
True, but harsh! I see you've been blocked. Karma, I guess.DMCer (talk) 19:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Seriously? I'd wager because it all involves the illegal trafficking and use of illegal/heavily-monitored items. I can see the disparity between substances and weapons themselves, but the execution of enforcement is likely similar. -BaronGrackle 20:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • GOOD POINT TO BaronGrackle. The chief historian of the federal law enforcement training center made the point in Appendix G of the Treasury Dept report on Waco that tax collection on alcohol, tobacco and firearms involves very similar regulation functions, as well as the same problems in interdicting illicit trafficking as well. There is still the old running joke that alcohol, tobacco and firearms ought to be a convenience store and not an agency.Naaman Brown (talk) 04:27, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Good O' Boys Roundup" Controversy

The "Good O' Boys Roundup" controversy should at least be mentioned in the article. There is plenty of evidence for these racist gatherings and that ATF played a major role in them. --DiehardDanny 21:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

  • The Good O' Boys Roundup (GOB) was run by an ATF agent Eugene Rightmeyer as a private enterprise. Throughout its history it involved at most fifty ATF agents off-duty; in its zenith (or nadir) it involved nearly five hundred people, camping out, whitewater rafting, etc. at a private campground. About fifty or so were federal agents, another two hundred were state, county or city LEO and up to 250 were civilian friends of the LEOs. The Knoxville TN district court office warned US Marshals and federal Prosecutors not to attend if they valued their reputations. The US DOJ investigators stated that their investigation of allegations against the GOB were hampered because one of the features was a 24-hour all-weekend free beer truck. The GOB was an out-of-control event loosely associated with an agency that collected "sin taxes" on alcohol, tobacco and firearms: the self-appointed guardians of public morality. For people (including myself) outraged at the excessive force displayed at Ruby Ridge and Waco, the GOB was a perfect send-up for their least-favorite agency involved, the ATF. BUT although the organizer was an ATF agent, and some ATF agents did attend, GOB was not an official function of the ATF and criticism of GOB should be directed at Rightmeyer for failure to control his own private event. GOB does not reflect on today's BATFE.Naaman Brown (talk) 04:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)