Wikipedia talk:Build the web

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[edit] Support and opposition

Supporters of the "build the web" rule include: LA2, sjc (strongly), Mike Dill, GWO, tbc, AxelBoldt, Koyaanis Qatsi, 24 (strongly), Enchanter, Eclecticology, Tarquin, llywrch, Patrick, till we *), Toytoy

I always add too many links in articles that deal with imaginary topics: SF, TV, movies, urban legends. This possibly helps people to go back to the reality. It's usually next to impossible for a SF movie to link to another one, unless filmmakers wanted to do so. But all fictional subjects link to the shared human knowledge base. -- Toytoy 02:57, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)

Opponents include:

This is an unfair request to vote. I might as well say I'm opposed to motherhood and apple pie as list my name as an "opponent" of the "Build the web" rule. Of course we should build the web. Yet, I also believe that there is a cost to over-linking - potentially, quite a high cost. The hard part of our job as editor/contributors is finding the right balance. The discussion at wikipedia talk:Make only links relevant to the context and its related archive page(s) is more balanced and detailed than the discussion here. Rossami 17:11, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Note: the appearance need not be like shown above; if all words are links, there is no need for underlining, a different color, etc. These could be reserved for the more important links, so that the appearance would remain the same as it is now. (comment by Patrick moved off the main policy page)

[edit] Allwiki

While I don't support the idea of wikipedia articles having hyperlinks for every word, I'd support a function where you could input a piece of text and see which words/phrases have entries in wikipedia (and/or wiktionary), and which ones would be redlinks. Andjam 10:41, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

It exists, it is the #ifexists function. See WP:PF. 72.139.119.165 19:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] One line summary

There being a need for concise one line summaries of guidelines, I offer this version. Please feel free to change it as necessary, and update the template Template:Guideline one liner to suit your taste. Please don't remove it simply because you think the summary is inaccurate for this guideline. Comments and opinions welcome! Stevage 03:01, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

You start with the premise "There being a need for concise one line summaries...". I question that premise. I do not see a need for a one line summary. The only possible summary which is that concise is already on the page - the page title. The next layer of detail is the introductory paragraph. Our introductory paragraphs are not always perfectly written but creating an eye-blurring template with a redundant sentence adds nothing of obvious value to the page. I'm removing the template and pasting it below pending further discussion. Rossami (talk) 18:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
This page in a nutshell: Link articles sideways to neighbours, and upwards to categories and contexts to create a useful web of information
Thanks for copying it here. The discussion is taking place at Template:Guideline one liner. Stevage 00:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Update: See {{Nutshell}}. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What links here comment

Could someone explain the sentence:

Remember that a link can also be useful when applying the "What links here" feature from the target page.

I know what the "What links here" tool does, but still don't understand how extra wikilinks help it.--Commander Keane 18:12, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, if linking makes an article more useful, it follows that an increased number of backwards links is also a Good Thing. - BanyanTree 15:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Does "If you are not happy with a link, improve the link or improve the linked article. Only in rare cases is it better to remove the link altogether (apart from the case of a duplicate link)" have to do with dead "red links"? All too often I see links that didn't need to be links in the first place that are red, but this guideline seems to imply that the red-links shouldn't be touched. Twocs 15:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course you should use common sense and remove ridiculous red links. In many regards, this guideline is rubbish (ie is in dynamic tension with Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context)--Commander Keane 16:26, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Allwiki periodically re-evaluated

I'm referring to:

"The wikipedia community evaluated and eventually rejected the allwiki concept. It is periodically proposed for re-evaluation"

I have been here for over a year and have never seen allwiki re-evaluated. So can the statement be reduced to:

"The Wikipedia community evaluated and eventually rejected the allwiki concept."

--Commander Keane 00:22, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FYI: Quotations should not contain wikilinks proposal

Resolved. This proposal now part of the Manual of Style.

A proposal relating to this policy has been created at Wikipedia:Quotations should not contain wikilinks, please discuss on that proposal's discussion page. Hollow are the Ori 23:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What Allwiki is not

Allwiki is not the idea that articles of Wikipedia or Wiktionary are linked to text elements of articles in order to assert relevant context. Frank W ~@) R 21:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The converse, namely that links by which to assert relevant context are not plainly links of all given words, sentences or expressions in a page, is currently discussed elsewhere. Frank W ~@) R 21:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Query over guideline status

Can someone advise me of the circumstances in which the tag was added to the top of the page, particular, the nature of the consensus that was achieved? The content doesn't look like a guideline, and to claim that it "is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow" appears to be a stretch. The status of the information about "allwiki" is unclear in relation to this "guideline". There's none of the detail and precision that is typical of guidelines, but rather a series of instructions unsupported by logic or other reasoning. Tony 06:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

There appears to have been no discussion or consensus concerning the change from semipolicy to policy. Thus, I intend to change the tag back to semi tomorrow as an opening measure, unless a convincing case is made for retaining it. Tony 23:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intention to remove the semiguideline status of this page

There is no sign that consensus was gained on the addition of the guideline or semiguideline status of this page.

The text is full of vague statements, and the page lacks cohesion, coherence and focus. It is not in an appropriate register for a guideline.

I intend to take steps to remove the guideline status in two weeks' time (13 September 2007) unless a good argument is put here to retain it. Tony 12:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Do not do so. This page has existed since long before we started making the artificial distinctions between "policy pages", "guidelines", et al. Consensus is demonstrated by the mere fact that it's been around so long and has no significant disputes in it's history. It's also a remarkably accurate description of the way the project functions. Within limits, articles are improved by hyperlinking.
By the way, this page can also be found in Meta where it is equally well supported and applies to all the WikiMedia projects.
The text is vague because it's a guideline. That means there are lots of exceptions, considerations and nuance. If it could be reduced to absolute rules, we'd call it something else. That's not to say that the wording can't be improved, though. If you think you can improve it, be bold. Rossami (talk) 13:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
You're going to have to point to where this so-called consensus is. It needs to be discussed. The page, as I've pointed out, lacks key aspects of a guideline and is in dynamic tension with another MOS submanual. This is an unsatisfactory situation.
Where, for example, is the original consensus for making this a semiguideline, and then a full guideline? I've searched for it, and came away with the impression that this is POV-pushing page for just one or two people. Tony 03:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Please keep reading the archives - not just of this page, though. You'll have to check out the Village Pump archives and the other common discussion pages used back in 2002. Some of those discussions were moved to Meta and others were simply archived into the page histories. (We were not in the habit back then of creating special archive pages for every discussion.) You'll have to do some real digging if you really want to read it for yourself. This is one of the foundational pages from the very start of the project.
If you look at the pagehistory, you'll see that the page was tagged as "semi-policy" in Dec 2004. The concept of "semi-policy" was changed to "guideline" in the spring of 2005. The tag was applied without dispute as soon as the category was created and upgraded when they changed the designation. The age of the page also serves as evidence of consensus because at Wikipedia, silence generally implies consensus, especially on well-read and well-linked pages. Many people have read this page and you are the first person to contest it.
As to the principle behind the page, it's a fundamental expression of the way that a hypertext-powered reference is supposed to work. It explains to those new to the concept that the organization of information is not bound by hierarchy - it can expand across multiple dimensions simultaneously in ways that paper-based references never can. Effective use of hyperlinks can bring readers to new information - knowledge that they might not have thought to look for themselves.
At the same time, there can certainly be too much of a good thing. Any policy can render absurd results when taken to absurd extremes. That is the very principle behind the concept of dynamic tension - being asked to balance two competing priorities almost always gives better results than measuring on only one factor. WP:CONTEXT is the counter-balance.
Finally, you've said twice now that you think this is POV-pushing. I'm not sure what POV you think is being pushed here. How do you think that changing the header on this page will change any behavior of editors? Why do you think this guideline is a bad thing for the project? Rossami (talk) 06:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I am again removing the "debate" line from this page because the debate was never about this side of the balance. The debate at the time was whether WP:CONTEXT was necessary or healthy for the project. That debate is long ended. If you want to flag the current page as disputed, do so directly using {{disputedpolicy}}. The link to the talk page of WP:CONTEXT is inappropriate for your stated goal. Rossami (talk)

  • Tony, I'm afraid you are mistaken in your assumptions on how Wikipedia policies and guidelines work. As Rossami points out, the fact that this page has been around uncontroversially for a very long time demonstrates its consensual acceptance. Pages aren't "made" a guideline through some kind of process or vote or whatnot. And I have no idea where you came across the idea of "semiguideline" because such things do not exist on Wikipedia. >Radiant< 08:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Nothing here remotely supports your contention that the status of the page ever received consensus. It has, in fact, no consensus at all, and I believe that to claim this is fraudulent. Now listen SunShinesOutOfYour..., you've acquired a nasty habit of telling people, or is it just me, that they're "wrong", plain "wrong", or mistaken. I find you offensive. Tony 09:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Radiant has a few good technical points, but I have to concur that this is not a Wikipedia guideline. The fact that it has existed for a long time as a page on Meta is utterly irrelevant; m:Deletionism and m:Inclusionism have too, but they are not only not WP guidelines they do not exist on WP at all. I've tried to improve the text of this thing some, but it is mostly a lost cause, because it is an unfocused (albeit short) ramble, provides no guidance at all, just a summary of history and differing viewpoints, conflicts with three guidelines, and is diametrically opposed by WP:CONTEXT which has far more buy-in in Wikipedia of 2007. I.e. both WP:BTW and WP:CONTEXT are necessarily essays, not guidelines. No one is arguing for this page's deletion; it is simply confusing to editors to present them with competing essays one of which claims without consensus to be a Wikipedia guideline (as opposed to a well-liked Meta braindump). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] shortcut

New shortcut: WP:BUILD. Not sure how to edit the above template on the page. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 18:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed policy tag

Now, let me get this right: you are allowed to dispute policy on WP, aren't you? Rossami has suggested the tag, and I've added it.

Or is it that case that you're not allowed to dispute Radiant's view?

Reverting the tag will be a serious breach of accepted behaviour, and will result in a complaint. Tony 10:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Read the documentation for {{disputedpolicy}} - "It is not intended for ... indicating a personal dislike of the document." Furthermore, a single user's objection does not mean that the "status" of a long-standing guideline is disputed, not by a long shot. If you object to the wording, {{sofixit}}. Handwaving that "this page wasn't approved by the official guideline building process" is irrelevant since such a process doesn't exist. >Radiant< 10:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, you're not acting like a Nazi. No one is allowed to dispute this article, because you say they shouldn't: that's what it comes down to. You're also in defiance of the other user on this page who suggested that the tag be added. You're crazy. Tony 11:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Godwin's law. You've just lost the discussion. >Radiant< 11:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
So you operate on a win/lose thing, do you? I really don't care what your link to some law says; not interested. Looks as though you and I are in for a protracted, nasty struggle. Tony 11:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Before you get yourself in trouble for violating WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, Tony1, I suggest you go read those policies and make sure you're willing to abide by them. Also, you might want to be aware that a Wikiquette Alert has been filed regarding your behavior. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 18:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Essay not guideline

This should clearly be designated an {{Essay}} not {{Guideline}}. It wanders, does not actually advise much about anything, is written in an informal tone like an essay, does not appear to have consensus to be designated a guideline, directly conflicts with the Manual of Style (and well as WP:MOSLIST and WP:MOSNUM, which is one of the most widely and strongly accepted guidelines on the system, and just overall seems dreadfully out of focus, wandering here and there as it does into historical "allwiki" curiousities that no one but wikihistorians care about, and so forth. Has some interesting points, but this is so not guideline material. The fact that it was considered interesting (in both positive and negative senses of that word) and appealed to some but by no means all editors (the competing WP:CONTEXT is far more heavily relied upon today) all the way back to 2004 or 2002 or whatever is of no consequence; there is no clear consensus that this document is a 2007 Wikipedia guideline. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 04:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

If you think it could be better worded, Wikipedia:be bold and fix it. But summarily downgrading this from guideline will be vigorously opposed. This is a fundamental explanation of the way a hypertexted reference work functions (which may now seem obvious to you but is still a new idea to many of our readers/editors). I will also dispute the assertions that this guideline directly conflicts with the Manual of Style (though a few of the examples could probably use updating based on the new standards for numbers, etc). I see this page as an integral part of our style guidelines - a clear description of the essential balance that we need to strike between this guideline and WP:CONTEXT.
I will concede that it is informal and has some asides. That's how all our policy and guideline pages used to be written. Frankly, I prefer that style but if you think it should be more formal, propose some changes.
I will also concede that right now we have more trouble with people over-linking than underlinking, hence the current focus on WP:CONTEXT. But removing the page will lead us to equal but opposite imbalance. We need both measures in order to maintain the dynamic tension. Rossami (talk) 04:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
That said, perhaps both this and WP:CONTEXT would be improved if we merged them into a single page which explained both sides of the balance on one page... Rossami (talk)
I don't think so. This page would have to be reconceived and rewritten completely to qualify as a guideline or even to justify appearing on the same page as "Context". Tony (talk) 08:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
You know, I'd been taking it for granted that the page might need updating based on the changes that have been made to WP:MOSLIST and WP:MOSNUM since this page was originally drafted. I finally had some time to re-read those pages and I'll tell you that I don't see anything in either page that is inconsistent with the guidance on the WP:BUILD page. Nor can I find any conflicts with the Manual of Style. Show me what I'm missing, please. Rossami (talk) 11:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Not even talking about the inconsistency in fact; just the inconsistency in tone, tenor, texture and style. This is just vague musings that come over as a personal, pet obsession. Try to rewrite it if you can, but until it's completely redone, it's a laughing stock. Tony (talk) 11:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Before you shoot me

...for boldly de-guidelinifying, I do have my arguments handy and I do have a plan. I'm heavily involved in patrolling style guidelines, but it's a real chore. One thing that would make it a lot easier would be for some of the 67 style guidelines to get promoted to editing guidelines, which would mean that theoretically, more people will be interested in keeping an eye on them. Anything that makes editing guidelines look silly will thwart this plan, and this stubby-stub of a page is an example of a silly editing guideline. It has one or two nice ideas which could easily slide into other guidelines, IMO. WP:Writing better articles has some content in common. Thoughts? - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 21:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This is one of the earliest guidelines the project had. Demoting it to "essay" status demeans a lot of its value. It also creates a strong possibility of confusion over the precedent between this page and WP:CONTEXT. Having one as guideline and one as essay sends the message that they are to be weighed differently. In fact, they are in dynamic tension and only work if both factors are considered.
That's not to say that this page couldn't be improved or merged somewhere. But I don't think the fact that the page is short is inherently bad. It says what it has to and no more. Rossami (talk) 16:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Okay, if there's a long-time sense that this is the way to balance this issue, I have no problem keeping it as is. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 02:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Remove the Allwiki section

I think the Allwiki section is sort of unnecessary. It's not saying anything that WP:CONTEXT doesn't say, while having no continuity from the top of the page. It's not a necessary part of the guideline. This would be far more appropriate over on WP:CONTEXT, or, probably, on its own page, which both of these guidelines would then link to. I really don't care which, but I definitely think it doesn't belong here. Thoughts, anyone? --Aervanath's signature is boring 19:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

It's in there because the proposal to switch the MediaWiki software to an allwiki concept is a perennial question. Whenever we've removed it, new editors again start to argue that we should link everything automatically, without realizing all the reasons why doing so would be a huge disservice to our readers. If you can improve the wording, be bold, but I'd be hesitant to remove it altogether. Rossami (talk) 01:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not advocating deleting it entirely. I'm saying it should be moved somewhere else, and then linked to from here. Like, the guideline should include the sentence "Wikipedia does not use Allwiki", with a link to the WP:Allwiki page, or the Allwiki section in WP:CONTEXT. Either way, I'm going to be bold and rewrite that section as you suggested.--Aervanath's signature is boring 07:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC)