Talk:Brumby

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[edit] Stuff to add?

This material was added to the feral horse article, but was removed because it ws extreme POV and what wasn't fits better here. However, it also isn't terribly well written, so am putting it here in case some editor of this article finds something useful that is worth adding to the brumby article. Thanks Montanabw 19:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC) (I didn't write this, I'm just the messenger...) The feral horse also known as the Brumby was introduced to N.S.W., from the United Kingdoms, on the First Fleet with other introduced species. But, from 1788 the feral horses roamed all over the other Australian States or Region. In the centre of Australia, feral horses can graze large amounts of land because they travel up to 50 kilometres to search for food. The feral horses degrade or erode areas which are close to waterholes, which cause critical endurance of many native animals and plants. With the need of food sources the native plants and animals can become locally extinct. The feral horses always compete for food and water with native animals and other feral animals. But, because of that the horse has always been more dominant than many other native animals, because of their speed and has always eaten or destroyed grass and other vegetation mainly from the wombat, kangaroo, and bilby, which explains a little problem why the bilby is now endangered. Despite their reason for introduction, the feral horses have no positive impact in environment and are major pests that cause many native animals and plants to suffer.

The NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service has commenced a plan to reduce brumby numbers by passive trapping in the Oxley Wild Rivers NP. Ref. "Draft Feral Horse Management Plan", January, 2006 Cgoodwin 06:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Toss that in, I'll wordsmith. Put the <ref>and </ref> tags on either side of your source and you will be good to go! Montanabw(talk) 17:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation?

Just a thought: is it worth including one of those phonetic pronounciation guides here? I'm just curious as to how you say "brumbies" (either the animal or the rugby team!). Do you pronounce the second 'b'? -- MLD · T · C · @:  14:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you definitely do pronounce the second b in the word brumby. Also, by the way, the noun is spelled pronunciation, you lose the second o.Philryan (talk) 13:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Disambig

Following discussion with various rugby union people it was decided to have its own link on the Brumby page.Londo06 20:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Then does it need the disambiguation link, do you think? It seems a bit odd to have the only two pages link to each other and link to a disambiguation page which only covers the two already linked to - three pages where two would do. Just trying to avoid redundant links. I'm a rugby union person (I go to every Brumbies home game) and good rugby is all about simplicity ;-) --Ossipewsk (talk) 01:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I cannot claim to have seen the Brumbies at Canberra Stadium but it is fairly common for clubs nicknames, emblems or logos to be directly linked off a main article page rather than through disambiguation.Londo06 20:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
As one of the horse articles editors, I could not care less about the issue, but note that the article Cowboy just links to a disambig page, in spite of the fame of the USA Dallas Cowboys American football team, and the article Mustang also just links to a disambig page in spite of the fame of the car model known as the Ford Mustang as probably a couple dozen minor-league teams named the "Mustangs" in various sports. So all I can say is that usual wiki protocol is to just have as simple a disambig link as possible, though occasional exceptions get made for things like edit wars, move wars, etc... How about someone cite to the wikipedia guidelines and follow the consensus as to best practice? Montanabw(talk) 18:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Montanabw. I agree the single disambig link is all that is needed - and grateful that you point out the precedent/policy for similar situations. I've looked at the Disambiguation and Hatnotes pages. The current situation is not covered precisely, but it's pretty clear that the use of a Hatnote (which is what the extra non-disambiguation line is) in addition to a Dismabiguation link is superfluous and discouraged. Anyway, having them both makes whoever put in the hatnote look like they're unsure of what they're linking to. Londo06, are you able to take Montanabw's advice onboard and that the disambiguation link addresses your comment that "it is fairly common for clubs nicknames, emblems or logos to be directly linked off a main article page", as that approach seems to be different from usual practice? --Ossipewsk (talk) 02:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

Firstly the statement that there were brumbies in the Kimberley in 1840 is very unlikely as it is a very remote area and was not traversed by explorers until about 1879, almost 40 years later. We also need to remember that kangaroos also make tracks, too, although many refuse to acknowledge this. In the mountain areas and national parks there stock such as horses and cattle in controlled numbers reduce the fuel build up that leads to the hugely destructive fires that have taken hold in places such as around Canberra and Victoria in recent years. These fires destroyed plants, habitat and animals and somes fires were then followed by devastating floods and erosion caused by a lack of vegetation. Cgoodwin (talk) 11:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to dive in and dispute, rewrite or toss any of that new material. Someone else wrote it and put it into both feral horse and horse Dana and I both tossed it from those articles per WP:UNDUE, and I pitched it here as the best place for it. As far as I can tell, the material is very POV, comes from only two main sources and makes it sound like brumbies are the reason civilization as we know it is coming to an end--even worse than rabbits! LOL! Had the material been placed in Mustang (horse), I would have thrown it out as blatent POV, as it sounds like typical anti-mustang propaganda here, but I don't know much on the ecological impacts of brumbies in AU, so figured I'd leave it for others to fight over. It's all yours. mate! Montanabw(talk) 22:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I realize that there may or may not be scientific evidence on the claims of brumbies in the Kimberley in 1840, but consider that horses start breeding in wild by about 3yo, and that the first documented release of horses to the wild was 1804. Yes, horses were valuable to the early Australian colonists, and so maybe not many were let go, but it only takes a few to start a breeding colony. In other words, it doesn't take settlement or travel by white man explorers for wild horses to be able to spread.Philryan (talk) 14:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I have no clue on any of this for AU, I just cut and pasted the stuff from another article where it clearly didn't belong. If you and Cgoodwin think it's questionable or not properly cited, work it out with good source material and otherwise do as you see fit. I was just the messenger and have no ownership of the content.
However, based on what happened in the USA, domesticated horses back in the 'day were often allowed to grow up in a semi-feral state, particularly where pasture was poor and they had to roam far and wide to get enough to eat. When the annual roundup occurred, it was common for a few to go missing. (Escaping to the wild, being stolen by others, dying, etc...) However, as far as herds spreading, they wouldn't go too far each generation, as first they have to develop sufficient population to break into multiple herds with multiple territories, then overrun existing range, etc. In the US, most of the various Mustang herds are actually quite distinct genetically -- herds from, say, Montana can be easily distinguished both by DNA and by visible phenotype from those somewhere like northern Nevada. The root stock were different animals - brought by settlers of different regions. (or, in the USA, also distributed by Native American people who either stole or traded for horses with both whites and one another). So while I don't know the geography of rural AU well enough to have an opinion on the Kimberly issue, I will say that natural distribution is generally a whole lot slower and more limited in geographic scope than is distribution via human exploration or settlement. Montanabw(talk) 19:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fact tags and the new content

I think the stuff that has just been tagged with the "fact" template all comes from the respective cites at the end of the paragraphs. If you can find the source, it's worth seeing if it is a) blatently one-sided POV itself and hence not reliable per WP:CITE and WP:V or b) misquoted by the editor who put it in, possibly "cherry picking" data or taking statements out of context. (I have seen this happen every now and then) The Nimmo piece in particular (which is the main cite used over and over again in that new material) seems to be kind of one-sided for an apparently scientific article...?

Also, based on what has worked for me in other controversial articles (like rodeo), what I'd do is find contrasting sources and edit some sections to do a "one side says X, but this is disputed by the other side, which says Y." Won't ever satisfy the fanatics and trolls, but it usually works with everyone else. You might want to see what was done (much by me - grin) in Mustang (horse) which has similar controversies to this article. Montanabw(talk) 19:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You have improved the article, but Environmental impacts still sounds as though it was written by a "town greenie" in an airconditioned office. I have not noticed any brumby impact on eucalyptus trees and some of the other claims don't have any factual support. It is a difficult call and I'm uncertain as to how best to deal with it. Cgoodwin (talk) 03:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
If there is any way to find the source material and check what it actually says against what is written, that would be ideal. On the other hand, the person who wrote all of this hasn't been back, so if you want to just toss the most dubious stuff, I sure won't kick because all I did was a copy and paste and have only been trying to wordsmith other than that. My expertise is on American Mustangs, and the ecology of the Western US is different, thus as I don't know Australian ecological conditions well, I shall defer to you. (but we get edits like this in Mustang too, which I usually just summarily toss <grin>) Montanabw(talk) 05:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC)