Talk:Bruce Chen

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[edit] Inclusion of Chinese name

(transferred over from User talk:Nlu)

There is no comparison whatsoever between Lara Veronin and Bruce Chen. Lara lived in China, may have been born there for all we can tell from the article. Bruce Chen is at least four generaions removed from any ancestors who were born in China, has never been in China himself, isn't known by a Chinese character name by anyone. Gene Nygaard (talk) 16:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Except he is. Chinese language news sources use the Chinese name for him, and the name was verified; there is no reason to remove that information. Moreover, your edit also removed his birth date and place. --Nlu (talk) 16:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
BFD. Chinese news sources use the Chinese characters for George Bush and Hillary Clinton too. It doesn't belong here, and birth date and place don't belong in Chinese character template in the first place. Put them back in, fine. Gene Nygaard (talk) 16:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
That's different; those aren't Chinese names, but transliterations; Chen's name was a name given by his parents, and that's a major difference. Frankly, I think removing the Chinese name under this argument is disrespectful. --Nlu (talk) 16:40, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Bruce Chen's name is a transliteration, too. No difference whatsoever. Slapping Chinese characters where they don't belong in an English Wikipedia is disrespectful of the English language. The Spanish spelling of his name, if it differs in any way from the English, might belong here; Chinese characters do not. Gene Nygaard (talk) 16:43, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Let's copy this to Talk:Bruce Chen and continue there. Gene Nygaard (talk) 16:44, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

"Yongcai" is not a transliteration of "Bruce" or "Kastulo." The situation is not the same. It is a legitimate Chinese language name, just as much as both my own Chinese and English names (which are not transliteration of each other) are legitimate names for me, an American citizen. If there should be a Wikipedia article on me at some point, I'd certain expect both names to be included. Excising the Chinese name based on the reason stated above is disrespectful. --Nlu (talk) 16:47, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Moreover, even if arguendo not disrespectful, it's still useful and verified information removed for no good reason. --Nlu (talk) 16:48, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter in the least what "Yongcai" is; that is, first of all, totally unreferenced and unverified. Second, there is no evidence whatsoever that even Bruce Chen's parents could even write his name in Chinese characters any better than he could, which is probably not at all, and certainly no evidence that either he or his parents would have written it the way it appears here if they could. All we know for sure is that neither of them, and none of their parents either, were born in China. I don't know if he is 15/16 Croatian or 3/8 Greek and 3/8 Scottish (given the Bruce name, that's as good a guess as any) and a smattering of something else, or whatever.
The Chinese characters do not belong in this article. Period. Gene Nygaard (talk) 16:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, the Washington Post article, says "There was no point in giving the child a Chinese name" in reference not to Bruce, but rather to his father Jose. Even less reason to do so for Bruce, when the father wasn't given a Chinese name himself. Gene Nygaard (talk) 17:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Since it doesn't look like we'll agree on this, let me file a RfC. But let me further say this: whether the Washington Post columnist thought that there was no point in giving Bruce or Jose a Chinese name is irrelevant. His opinion is his own. Lou Dobbs might opine that I should lose my Chinese name. I won't. --Nlu (talk) 17:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese name

Whether the article should include his Chinese name.

I've read the discussion above (and that's the limit of my exposure). First question: What is the name "Yongcai" referenced above? Did someone give that as his real name? Otherwise, I'd have to agree with Gene Nygaard that there's no more reason to give Chen's name in Chinese than it is to give Dave Roberts name in Japanese. Shawn Green and Sandy Koufax aren't listed in Hebrew, Al Campanis and Bob Costas aren't listed in Greek, Victoria Tennant and Dianne Feinstein aren't listed in Russian, and Tiger Woods isn't listed in Thai. —Wknight94 (talk) 00:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean -- is the name used elsewhere? If that's what you are asking, the answer is yes. The name is used in virtually every established Chinese news source whenever they report about him. I've included a link from a Liberty Times article, but that's not the only news organization that uses the name. --Nlu (talk) 09:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
What does the name translate to? "Bruce"? Or is it a nickname that the Chinese press have given him? —Wknight94 (talk) 14:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, it's not a nickname. The name has no connection with Bruce, linguistically, as far as I can know. (it also has no direct connection to any other person known as Bruce -- for example, it is not the same name as Bruce Lee's.) If you are forced to give a literal meaning to the name, it could mean, "one who uses colors." As far as I can tell, it's a formal Chinese name just as any other. (See Chinese name for more details.) --Nlu (talk) 17:00, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
But where did they get it? Is it on his birth certificate? Why do they use that name when no one in the English-speaking world seems to have heard it? Sorry but if no one can provide a single English reference to substantiate this "Yongcai" name, then it has no business being in the article just for the sake of WP:V. That's my two cents anyway. Do other English names get transliterated similarly? I.e., where translating to Chinese then back to English produces completely different words? —Wknight94 (talk) 17:35, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
This is not meant to be an insult or an accusation, but are you implicitly or explicitly arguing that Chinese language news sources are less reliable than English language ones? No one is questioning the reliability of the Washington Post article even though it didn't cite sources, and you disbelieve the reliability of the Liberty Times article? The standard treatment in Chinese news sources for persons without Chinese names is to transliterate their names, but, as noted above, Yongcai is not a transliteration of Bruce. I don't think the Annette Lu article requires specific citations to birth certificate, for example, with regard to what her Chinese name is. If we are going to consider large-circulation news sources as reliable sources for the purpose of WP:V, all of them should be. Otherwise, we should throw out the Washington Post article as well.
In particular, WP:V states that main-stream newspapers are to be considered sufficient reliable except when it comes to exceptional claims. That Chen's Chinese name is Yongcai does not appear to be an exceptional claim that requires exceptional verification. Other mainstream news sources that use the name of Yongcai include ETtoday[1], The Epoch Times[2], and United Daily News[3]. It is also the title of his Chinese Wikipedia article. Also, for whatever it's worth, Google considered "Yongcai" sufficiently reliable that if you search for "用彩", it wil consider 用彩 the equivalent of Bruce's name and direct you to Chen's MLB user page.[4] --Nlu (talk) 19:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
If you do similar with Hank Aaron's Chinese article, how does it translate back to English? How about Bruce Springsteen's Chinese article? I'm just not seeing the link between Bruce and Yongcai. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:31, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
(unidenting back to level 1) Both Hank Aaron's and Bruce Springsteen's article names were transliterations, not Chinese names. --Nlu (talk) 20:34, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
  • The Manual of Style says, "Foreign terms are used sparingly," and "Use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self-identification) whenever this is possible. Use terms that a person uses for himself or herself..." Unless it can be verified that Chen or his family uses his Chinese name, my presumption is that he self identifies as "Bruce Chen" and consequently there is no reason for this English-language article to refer to his Chinese name. BRMo (talk) 03:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
While I will admit it's not the same situation, see George Michael. (I know the situation is not the same because Michael originally had a Greek name -- although, it should be noted, he was born in the United Kingdom, not Greece -- and later changed it for professional reasons.) Again, Chen's Chinese name is not the matter of a nickname; it is an actual name.) --Nlu (talk) 17:04, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The difference in situations is exactly the point. George Michael was given a Greek name at birth; hence, it is part of his self-identification. Without similar evidence that Chen's Chinese name is part of his self-identification, the guidance from the Manual of Style says that it doesn't belong in the English-language article. BRMo (talk) 19:50, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
But right now, you don't know that Chen's Chinese name was not given at birth, and again, nothing in WP:V requires the verification of that fact, I believe, given the wide use of the name.
But that brings an interesting question: would it be WP:OR to send an e-mail or letter to Chen and/or his agent asking whether he self-identifies with the Chinese name? --Nlu (talk) 20:35, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, sending Chen or his agent an email would be original research. Without evidence from a reliable secondary source that Chen was given his name at birth or selected it himself, Chen's Chinese name does not belong in this English-language article. BRMo (talk) 21:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
You have any secondary sources indicating that Annette Lu and Frank Hsieh were given their Chinese names at birth or selected those themselves? --Nlu (talk) 22:31, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
You requested comments. I've given you my comments—Chen's Chinese name should be dropped from this English-language article. The continued debate is getting to be absurd and I don't see any point in continuing it. BRMo (talk) 04:28, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
(unindent to level 1) Am I doing anything to stop people from commenting? I don't think so. But I do believe (and I am commenting right now) you are giving short change to propriety of including the Chinese name, while providing insufficient argument for its exclusion. (It is, after all, information, and the general principle on Wikipedia is to, in doubt, include rather than exclude information.) It is not defamatory, nor does it have any undesirable effect that I can see. --Nlu (talk) 04:48, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
It isn't relevent, the citation of that name in a Chinese newspaper doesn't show any more relevance here than it would for any other biography of anyone in Wikipedia. The Chinese name which is not a part of Bruce Chen's identity doesn't belong here, and it makes no more sense than insisting on putting a Chinese name in the Tiger Woods article, and that doesn't have one. It makes no more sense than the Wentworth Miller article including a Cherokee name, a Jamaican name, a Russian name (in Cyrillic and transliteration), a Jewish name (in Hebrew with transliteration and in Yiddish), a German name, a Lebanese name in Arabic and French, a Swahili name, and whatever else. Actually, it doesn't make much more sense than putting a Chinese name in the Lech Wałęsa article, something that should be easily verifiable from Chinese newspapers, but suffering from the same problem we have here, a lack of relevance. Gene Nygaard (talk) 05:28, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
The difference is that Walesa is not ethnically Chinese and has no personal connection with Chinese culture. No, Chen did not grow up in a Chinese society, but even the Washington Post article claims a Chinese cultural identity. --Nlu (talk) 05:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
But Mr. Woods is.
That might justify inclusion in an ethnicity category. It doesn't justify Chinese characters in the text; there is no legitimate relevant connection for them. Gene Nygaard (talk) 19:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The Jan Wong article is one which illustrates the type of connections which might justify the inclusion of a non-English, non-French spelling for the name of a native-born Canadian. Had she not spent a considerable time in China, it probably wouldn't be justified there, either. Gene Nygaard (talk) 19:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
If Bruce Chen himself does not use the Chinese name, if he does not self-identify with it, and if it is only used in Chinese newspapers and never used in English newspapers, then it doesn't belong in this article. Otherwise, one could argue that every non-Chinese person who was given a name in a Chinese newspaper should have that Chinese name reflected in Wikipedia. It's not appropriate for this English-language version of Wikipedia. Cleanemupnowboys (talk) 01:16, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to be short and to the point here. We should keep his name there because I think there are no obvious reasons otherwise. Plenty of other Oriental players have their Chinese/Japanese names there. You say it doesn't belong here because he doesn't self-identify with it, if you had an article, what if they tried not to include your middle name because you don't commonly use it? Nearly the same thing.   jj137 ♠ 16:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
"Plenty of other Oriental players have their Chinese/Japanese names there." Yes, but the Asian players were given their Asian names at birth. Bruce Chen was given a Western name. Are there any other American (or Latin American) players of Asian descent who were given Western names at birth for whom Asian names are shown in the lead paragraph? Checking some articles, I don't see any--for example, Benny Agbayani, Johnny Damon, Ron Darling, Danny Graves, Atlee Hammaker, Mike Lum, Dave Roberts, Lenn Sakata, Kurt Suzuki.
"You say it doesn't belong here because he doesn't self-identify with it, if you had an article, what if they tried not to include your middle name because you don't commonly use it? Nearly the same thing." I didn't make up the criteria of self-identification, it comes from the Wikipedia:Manual of Style. The section on biography, WP:MOSBIO, says that the article should use the widely used name (e.g., Jimmy Carter), while the opening paragraph should start with the full name, including the middle name(s) (e.g., James Earl Carter, Jr.) The issue with Chen's Chinese name is that it doesn't appear to fit either criteria. For all we know, the name may have been made up by Chinese newspaper editors covering Major League Baseball. Unless we find some evidence that it was given at birth, it doesn't appear to fit in the opening paragraph according to the guidance given in the Manual of Style. BRMo (talk) 07:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the latter comment is appropriate or relevant under WP:V. A "mainstream newspaper" is considered a reliable source; it doesn't matter what language it is in. --Nlu (talk) 07:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree that a mainstream newspaper is a reliable source regardless of the language. That doesn't imply that Chinese names given to people born with Western names belong in English-language Wikipedi articles. It's a question of article style and relevance, not verifiability. BRMo (talk) 07:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)