Talk:Bronze Soldier of Tallinn/Archive 6

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
← Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 →

Contents

Background: Russian official view on annexation?

I'm not sure how to interpret this sentence:

Russian-speaking population largely views Estonia's annexation into USSR as a legitimate process; an official view of the Russian Federation.

What does 'an official view' mean here (shouldn't it be the official view)? Is it a perception of Russia's official view by a large part of the Russian-speaking Estonian residents, or the writer meant to say that Russia has indeed expressed this officially? If the latter, please provide a reference. --Mzabaluev 18:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Russia took over Soviet interpretation of history, that's all. Governments don't tend to pubish their interpretations of history in press releases, but fairly good view on what's 'official' can be gained from history textbooks used in public schools. [1] Edgar Vares-Barbarus 18:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Source is here: Комментарий Департамента информации и печати МИД России в связи с высказываниями ряда европейских политиков относительно "оккупации" стран Балтии Советским Союзом и необходимости осуждения этого со стороны России. I tried to put this to the article, but this vandal from Moscow removed this. Interesting, that no administrators' actions still.80.235.55.122 19:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
As the page is semi-protected now, maybe somebody will replace {{fact}} tag inserted by Mzabaluev with this reference? Thanks.80.235.55.122 19:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
That seems so have been done already. But, is there any statistical evidence for the prior claim that "Russian-speaking population largely views Estonia's annexation into USSR as a legitimate process"? Camptown 20:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Such evidence would be in form of attitude surveys. These have certainly been conducted on this topic; I have seen them in the news. Can't find a particular source right now, though. Digwuren 06:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
BTW are there any pressing reasons for you not to register an account? We are trying to give occasional visitors an opportunity to easily fix typos, errors, etc. but community participation including editorial conflicts over controversial articles are much easier throw an established account. Alex Bakharev 00:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protection

The article is currently and temporarily (24 hours) semi-protected. ---Camptown 20:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest that all users who are blocked from editing make their suggestions (new edits, sources, critizism etc) below:

I strongly suggest that note on Georgian responce should be deleted as the sources are biased and unofficial. Find an official link like in cases of Belarus and Ukraine. Otherwise, one could cite hundreds of politicians' statements. If source is unchanged, after 24 hour it will be deleted anyway. Beatles_Fab_Four

The official site of Georgian Parliament: [2]. Is this the biased and unofficial site you're referring to? Lebatsnok 10:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Do you seriously claim that the Speaker of the Georgian Parliament never issued the statement? --Camptown 21:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Answer to Camptown: Do you seriously think that wiki is a marketplace or blog or forum? If not, please, show us any relevant official statement of the Georgian Parliament. Everyone'd be glad. But So far you can't do this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Beatles Fab Four (talk • contribs) 22:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC).
Statement of Georgian Parliament’s speaker is enough well sourced. I would say we were even lucky to get English source because easily could had happened that all sources would had been in Estonian or Georgian. Bronze soldier controversy is not very importnant topic outside Estonia and Russia so oftenly finding English souces is problematical. Also no other editor has protested adding Georgian statement. But I just noticed there seems to be problem with Kyrgyzstan statement source as it does not seem to work properly.--Staberinde 08:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Wall street journal opinion (absolutly biased and impolite) must be deleted from the section other reaction anyway. This is not a responce from a society organization or respected person. If you wish move to links of supporters of relocation. Beatles Fab Four 16:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC) In fact, this is the only opinion of media in other reaction section. Why should opinion of unnamed journalist be placed there? Must be deleted Beatles Fab Four 16:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, indeed, moved Wall Street Journal article to "Supporters of the relocation".--Staberinde 17:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

In what way is Wall Street Journal article "absolutly biased and impolite"? You can get the whole article, if you go there from Google News ([3]). Also, another WSJ article, from Mart Laar ([4]), which makes some very good points about two-facedness of behavior of Russia - the article should be probably included to neutral views, though. DLX 17:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The highly personal and POVed OpEd piece from WSJ does not belong to the Article as a source of anything. Should we look for OpEd pieces in Russian press that label the modern Estonian government as "fascist" and add this all to the article? That piece is mere polemics. Does not belong to the encyclopedic article. --Irpen 19:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Would someone please finally explain the POVness of that article? DLX 19:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:NPOV requires all significant POVs to be represented, the WSJ editorial reflects the viewpoint of a significant number of people. Irpen's censorship of this WSJ editorial citing POV is nonsense. He contends that this WSJ article is highly personal? Then we should also delete Schroeder's view, his is now a private citizen. Why should the view of the chairman of Gazprom's shareholder committee be given more weight than the view of the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal, a highly respected newspaper? Martintg 20:11, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
While, the WSJ is indeed a respected mainstream newspaper, its editorial page is rather peculiar, stands out from the rest of the paper and is widely recognized to be highly POVed one. You may start reading on that from our own article The Wall Street Journal#Editorial line. WSJ's editorial is considered rather right-wing even by the US standards. Sure, we can present its POV, if you insist, but what would you say on adding similarly lengthy quotes from the Russian nationalist or left-wing press? --Irpen 01:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that would be fair. A section should be added for world press reaction, let's include Russian nationalist press too as well as your "rather right-wing" WSJ article. Martintg 10:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Totally agree. Editorials and op-eds are POVs by definition.Yury Petrachenko 07:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
This is absurd, you're adding all the reactions from various russian religious instances. Is it just me who thinks this is highly irrelevant, I find the WSJ article more relevant (isn't written by either of the parties involved). The estonian archbishop approved the relocation of the statue, not adding since it is irrelevant. Alepik 00:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest respected Estonian users to cool down. Please, read the aforemention reasons for deleting WSJ link carefully. BTW, opinion of your bishop is presented in the article. Beatles Fab Four 01:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Staberinde, can you please put in simple words, what this note on the so-called "prominent" Estonian expert is about? Absolutely unreadable. Beatles Fab Four 20:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I would had simply deleted that part but because that could had been called POV-pushing I tried to make it as accurate as possible. Actual case: Sociologist Juhan Kivirähk wrote very critical article about removal of bronze solder and demanded resignation of government. Then he was heavily criticized for that and some politicians called for discharging him as he works for state. Tammerk in his article condemned that and said that sociologists should have full freedom of speech, and made that comparison to nazi germany.--Staberinde 21:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion

Hi. I'm here because of a request on WP:3O. Since the request was made on the 2nd, there appears to have been heavy editing and discussion, and I'm not sure the request is relevant anymore. If it is, please re-add it, being careful to follow instructions about keeping it neutral and pointing at a particular talk page section. It's also worth considering other options for dispute resolution. Thanks, William Pietri 02:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

DLX

I think respected persons here should stop this provocator. Petri is a child compared to him. Beatles Fab Four 09:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The only provocator here is you, well, and maybe a few of your friends. Trying to justifie yourself by lies, hell of a provocation. M.V.E.i. 19:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Please, provide some specific instances of his provocations. 194.204.35.117 09:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
ok immediately a couple. 1) "re-taking" is a neutral tern. Why he constntly deletes it shuting occupation, occupation 2) "Jews were killed by Germans" Who helped them. Who physically killed them. Pushkin? Beatles Fab Four 09:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The problem with "re-taking" is that it implies that Tallinn was Russia's city before (or inherently). This is a non-factual POV, and can not be accepted in Wikipedia unless clearly labelled as such. Digwuren 17:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it was a Soviet city before the German invasion. What's the problem then. It's okBeatles Fab Four 17:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
And what about the first Soviet invasion?
This is the very problem with "re-". There were *two* Soviet invasions, but this aspect can not be clear from the context. "Before" is thus ambiguous, allowing spinsters to inject whatever meaning is convenient at the time into the concept. Puns and ambiguities, however delicious they may be, have no place in an encyclopedic article not dealing with puns and ambiguities. And I mean, respectively. Digwuren 17:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
You could also mention that Estonia was a part of the Russian Empire and so forth. Talking seriously, I thought the aspect was clear. Moans arose from the other side. Abstrcting from other layers of Estonian feelings, you should admit that "technically" it was re-taken. Beatles Fab Four 17:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
No, I shouldn't. Such a word would require too much additional explanation in the article; explanation that clearly has no relevance here. Instead, I do what every reasonable encyclopedian would: I choose a word whose semantic field is a better match for the appropriate meaning. Digwuren 18:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I am a native english speaker and definitely "entering" is the correct term. The Nazis left Paris before the Allies arrived, just as in Tallinn, therefore we speak of "entering". "Taking" is more appropriate for Berlin or Budapest, where the Allies had to fight their way in. Martintg 10:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
You are a native English speaker with Baltic roots. That changes everything ) Beatles Fab Four 11:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
What does it change? Nothing at all.194.204.35.117 11:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
It does, it shows who you are and it's understood what you will write. M.V.E.i. 17:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
That is a rather racist view. In fact I am an Australian, and if you don't know, most Australians have anglo-celtic roots. Martintg 22:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
When you have nothing to say on it you shout "racist view", got it! It's not a racism it's a fact, you have baltic blood offcourse you will try to denie the crimes of those to who some of your blood belonges to. M.V.E.i. 15:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Beatles Fab Four wrote: '"Jews were killed by Germans" Who helped them. Who physically killed them. Pushkin?' People kill people, not nations. There are always collaborators with any invading force - that is the nature of man. This will apply to any conflict, present or past. I wonder hhy has this topic any relevance here? 194.204.35.117 11:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Cheap demogogy. People kill people, not nations, maybe. But somehow to much people who belonged to the Estonian nation, killed other people because of them belonging to another nation.M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it has. There are no monuments to SS in Belarus, Ukraine, elsewhere. Many Estonians were active collaborators. Learn YOUR history. Beatles Fab Four 11:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
"Many" is too vague to mean anything. The same can be said about any nation/country invaded by German forces - many French were active collaborators, many Danes were active collaborators, many ..., many Russians were active collaborators, .... What does it prove - nothing. 194.204.35.117 11:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Many were of every nation? Ok, lets say so. But somehow to many of many were estonians, and no one gave such resistance to the Nazis as Russians.M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Please show me some of those fabled 'monuments to SS' in Estonia. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 12:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Enter to Google, and write "Nazi Monument In Estonia", it will find you alot of this dirt. M.V.E.i. 19:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Beatles Fab Four, please provide some examples, not cry "Wolf!!!", when there is none. Please read about history - for example, Occupation of Baltic States and History of the Jews in Estonia would be a good place to start. Soviet/Red Army came to Tallinn, when there was legal Estonian government already in place, liberation would mean that instead of occupying Estonia, they would actually given us our freedom (preferably before 50 years passed). Also, Estonians were not major players during German occupation - when talking about death camps, even most guards were not Estonians - as Germans didn't trust Estonians to be guards. DLX 11:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Stop telling lies. Once the Soviets left Estonia in 1941, the Estonians and the rest of Balts started killing Jews even before the Germans came, and the Germans trusted Estonians, after all, they are "brothers". And no one occupied you, you just feel small so you hate everybody. M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I thought that everyone realized what should not be written edit summaries but looks like some did not learn. Beatles Fab Four edit summary We freed Europe from Nazism, while you cleared Estonia from Jews. Seriously people, if you want to use retarded edit summaries, fine do as you wish, but do not expect to be taken seriously by other editors after that.--Staberinde 11:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

But what he wrote, was a fact. M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I get bored of your annoying comments. I see some want to write a new history of Europe. Beatles Fab Four 12:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
History of Europe has been like that for 60+ years for the whole world, excluding Russia/Soviet Union. DLX 12:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The whole Europe and the whole world knows about the crimes Estonians have done, so don't try to use Europes history, it will go agains you. M.V.E.i. 15:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Aha, I presume you are a denier of the Holocost. Beatles Fab Four 12:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
You presume wrong. However, I presume that you deny Soviet crimes - in my opinion, that is at least equal to Holocaust denial, if not worse, as the crimes were worse. But - enough of this offtopic discussion, let us stay on topic of improving the article - would be a totally new area for you, though. DLX 12:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
You didnt just denie Holocaust, you were of those who created it. Soviet crimes are nothing next to your Nazi crimes. M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, u right! estonian SS fighters are innocent. Indeed! Beatles Fab Four 13:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry, but... are you actually reading, what I said, or do you have small cards tagged "rant" from where you pick up cards randomly as comments? Because you make as much sense if you'd do that. DLX 13:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia has article about "estonian SS fighters" and their legal status: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Estonian%29

194.204.35.117 13:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

don't shw me english page you cleared it

Большая часть тех 4500 евреев, которые жили в Эстонии в начале наступления на Востоке, бежала вместе с отступающими войсками Красной Армии. Осталось около 2000 человек. В одном Таллине жило около 1000 евреев. Арест всех евреев мужского пола в возрасте старше 16 лет был почти закончен. Все они были казнены «частями самообороны» под руководством «айнзатцкоммандо 1А».[3] 26-29 сентября 1941 г. эстонские «силы самообороны» уничтожили 440 арестованных ими евреев (по другим данным — 474). [4] Имущество казненных частично передавалось немцами в распоряжение «сил самообороны». Помимо евреев эстонская полиция и «силы самообороны» ликвидировали сторонников советской власти (к которым зачастую причислялись все русские жители некоторых городов и сел). После занятия Вермахтом Тарту летом-осенью 1941 года, в противотанковом рву под городом (в населённом пункте Лемматси) отрядами «Омакайтсе» было убито более 12 тысяч мирных жителей и советских военнопленных.([5])

WANT MORE LITTLE WRITERS OF THE HISTORY? I CAN PROCEED

Beatles Fab Four 13:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


STOP SHOUTING AT PEOPLE **NOW** First of all, you should be polite. Don't copy/paste long paragraphs of Russian text here, give a short summary in English, or give a link. And explain why this is relevant to the issue at hand. Everybody knows about Nazi crimes in Estonia, you don't need to reiterate that. It is also known that a few local people collaborated. It's no news, but it is unclear why are you copy/pasting this here.

On the other hand, it is also known that a number of people actively collaborated with the inhuman Soviet regime. The atrocities committed by the Stalinist regime are, however, not a widely discussed topic in Russia, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were people who think Stalin was actually better than Hitler or things like that.

See also: [5]

Lebatsnok 15:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

A few colloborated??? A few??? Try 99.9% of the Balts. You were friends of Hittler, ofcourse you will try to "soften" the fact that he was the biggest creep in history but puting him next to Stalin.M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


You should give factual information or keep your fingers calm. What's the 99.9%??? This number says nothing except that it is an expression of the magnitude of your blind hatred of anything related to Estonia. And don't misinterpret my words: Hitler was an extremely disgusting guy, and Stalin was exactly as disgusting. No more, no less. To you, perhaps Holodomor was an example of Russian heroism or Gulag was an example of being nice to political opponents and national minorities. I'm happy that even in Russia, there are few people like you. Lebatsnok 20:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Stalian was less, but Hittler is closer to you so you defend him. Holodomor didn't have anything to do with Russians, many Russians who lived in Ukraine suffered from it, and west Russian suffered from hunger no Less. My grand-grand father was a peasent executed by the NKVD so dont try to use Gulag against me, but your Auswitz is still worst. Most of the people in Gulag were Russians, so no "minorities" suffered as minorities, there were people who were sent their without a reason. Chechenians and Tatars were sended there for supporting Hittler, by the way, today they dont denie it. M.V.E.i. 15:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


better think what other nations should feel when your prime-minister claims that the monument is "a grave of drunken soldiers", when your ambassador in Moscow immediately tells about a guy killed in protests "he was a vandal and looter", etc/ Beatles Fab Four 13:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
My grandma has seen the Nazi occupants, she told me about those Germans: Low, bodies of 9 year old girls, German language soundes like chicken beeng cut, and always drunk. But when the Russians came: NEVER drunk, polite, tall, straight-back. M.V.E.i. 15:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Ansip didn't say anything like that. He referred to some stupid urban legends concerning the people who are buried there --- which was, no doubt, an expression of bad taste. As for the ambassador's words --- the killed guy had stolen stuff in his pockets. Lebatsnok 15:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
...why does every soviet POV-pusher eventually fall back to hysteria? Lack of sensible arguments? Also, translation, please (I can read it just fine, but others here didn't necessarily have 12-years of compulsory Russian in school) Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
well I presune I now have the right to claim that Edgar Vares-Barbarus is Nazi-POV-pusher, but I won't. These are jusyt facts about your SS legion, PM, Marina, etc Beatles Fab Four 14:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Because they cannot handle that their petty views might be wrong. I've noticed that as well - in and out of Wikipedia. In truth, I don't think there is any reason to argue with them... they just stick fingers to ears and chant "You are fascist, you are fascist". It is impossible to get one actually to reason with you, unless s/he belongs to "intelligentsia", in which case Russians are very interesting to talk to. DLX 14:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Russians gave so much great contribution to world science, literature, and culture in generally. Who are you, the little Estonians who didn't bring contribution to the world or anything else, to talk about Russians?? All you can do is say: "were small, we didn't contribute anything to the world, we are full with selfhate. Well, at least we are in Europe, lets suck up to them, maybe someone will notice we excist". M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


Most of the POVs that can be recognised as bearing allegiance to Soviet, or Russian view of the events, have grave inconsistencies -- be they internal or incompatibilities with the facts. Thus, one trying to follow those POVs to their logical conclusions is bound to end up in cognitive dissonance.
Of course, this is not specific to this particular POV; it happens to all non-reality-based POVs. The allegiance problem is that reality-based POVs are typically not recognisable as being of any particular participant. Digwuren 17:04, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
"The peaceful and active life of the small Jewish community in Estonia came to an abrupt halt in 1940 with the Soviet occupation of Estonia. Cultural autonomy in addition to all of its institutions was liquidated in July 1940. In July and August of the same year all organizations, associations, societies and corporations were closed. A large group of Jews (about 400) were deported on 14 June 1941. After the German occupation later in 1941, all Jews who had failed to flee were murdered. According to data from Israel, 1,000 Estonian Jews were executed in 1941. After the war, a number of Jews who had previously fled to the Soviet Union returned to Soviet-occupied Estonia. There was, however, no rebirth of Jewish cultural life. Communist Party policies were hostile to Jews and were implemented as part of an anti-Zionism campaign. Hence, in addition to physical destruction, the Jews in Estonia met moral and cultural catastrophe." [6] Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Can you please remind me how many Jews were killed by Russians? ) Beatles Fab Four 14:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Replies to your questions - Estonian Jews killed by "Russians": during the first Soviet occupation of 1940-41 about 500 Jews were deported to Siberia. Very few of them returned. After the WWII - see History of the Jews in Estonia#Post-Holocaust.
As for your second question, that is easy: 0. They did not participate in Holocaust:
The Nuremberg Trials, in declaring the Waffen SS a criminal organisation, explicitly excluded conscripts in the following terms:
Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph who became or remained members of the organisation with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter or who were personally implicated as members of the organisation in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes.
In April 13, 1950, a message from the U.S. High Commission in Germany (HICOG), signed by John McCloy to the Secretary of State, clarified the US position on the "Baltic Legions": they were not to be seen as "movements", "volunteer", or "SS". In short, they were not given the training, indoctrination, and induction normally given to SS members. Subsequently the US Displaced Persons Commission in September 1950 declared that:
The Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States.
Separate??? Do you know how anxious they were to get the letters "SS" in their name? how much they've requested it? Nothing worst then little people trying to feel big. M.V.E.i. 20:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Who cares about internal affairs of the US? Beatles Fab Four 15:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that any further comments are necessary. DLX 14:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Google it. Of those deported to Siberia in 1940, not many returned. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Can you please remind me how many Jews were killed by Russians? ) Beatles Fab Four 14:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Judging from their bodycounts vs Red Army - and the fact that there were jews in Red Army - I'd say quite a few. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Gentlemen his answers tell everything about him. Thank you. Beatles Fab Four 14:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
You could've just as easily asked 'how many aseris' or 'how many georgians'. Estonians were in Waffen-SS, the military, not the political wing. Moreover, the units recruited from occupied areas didn't go through the ideological indoctrination ethnic German units did. It was simply a case of 'who'll give me a gun to shoot at reds?' Edgar Vares-Barbarus 15:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Ach, you edited your question after I had answered. [7]. Classy. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 16:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
It's the history. Just because Soviet/Russian authorities don't accept it, pushing own version, doesn't mean it's not true. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 13:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


Estonians participated in the Holocaust more then anybody else. They started killing Jews right after the Soviets left, BEFORE the Germans even came. M.V.E.i. 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
"Ложь, повторяемая достаточно часто, становится правдой" - Ленин. Estonians rounded up soviet collaborators, independent of nationality. 1.5 years in paradise that was USSR proved to be enough to get the GEPs seriously angry with soviets. (Translation of russian text: 'A sufficiently repeated lie becomes a truth' - Lenin") Edgar Vares-Barbarus 18:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Thats funy that YOU, an Estonin, used this phrase, because if theres anyone repeating lies beliving it will become truth, its you. M.V.E.i. 19:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

WOW! Comment from this guy Edgar Vares-Barbarus (remember his name) should be cited everwhere!

Q:How many Jews were killed by Estonian SS legioners?

A:That is easy: 0. They did not participate in Holocaust

I'll send it to Mossad ) Beatles Fab Four 17:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

If you stopped editing others' comments, you'd follow who wrote what better. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 17:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Petri Krohn again

I remember there were lots of accusations raised at one point (see: Talk:Bronze_Soldier_of_Tallinn/Archive_3#Petri_Krohn.27s_weird_manipulations); it looks that the user concerned continues with such 'controversial' practices (to say the least):

Ands so forth. It's time you stopped, because the article (/talk) here is NOT your personal playground, nor is it a place for stimulating hostility. E.J. 07:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It was I that first introduced the section, though I was not the first one to notice a pattern (somebody on an IRC channel I frequent did it before me). I disagree with the characterisation of the collection of patterned edits by Petri Krohn as 'accusations'. Digwuren 06:59, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Also, (the comment now on archive page two) what I remember so well (probably because I commented on it then) is his comment that 9th of May celebrations would probably (or in his mind "should"?, taking into account other statements by him) end with Toompea burnt down. -- 82.131.52.22 07:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
HANDS OFF PETRI KRON! ))) Beatles Fab Four 07:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Gentlemen, I think some remarks that slipped from PK have indeed been unfortunate but his edits to the article are certainly useful. Let's concentrate on the content and hope that Petri will learn from mistakes. --Irpen 07:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

We can hope that - although, last time we had that discussion here, he didn't. Perhaps it is time for Petri to take a short wiki-break. Emotions may start running too high and accusations are flying already. But I must admit that his edit summaries are rather... not nice and his edits seem to push an agenda from time to time. Hopefully this will change without need to involve Wikipedia authorities. DLX 08:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
That comment(Yes - but it also proves that Estonians are racists, if not Nazis.) unfortunately demonstrates that other users need to keep eye on neutrality of Petri Krohn's edits.--Staberinde 12:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll probably be labelled as a racist but some of the bias can probably be explained by Petri's russian ancestry. Alepik 16:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Come on guys, Staberinde, DLX and unonimous user from Estonia, you are no better than Petri (I mean non-neutral) Beatles Fab Four 21:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Russian bitches!

The page titled Tiblad Tõnismäel 26.04.2007 provides a real dilemma. On the one hand it is the best photo document availably on the protest at the monument on April 26. The photos are time-stamped, and show that the police started using tear gas at 21:31. They also do not seem to show any major provocation by the protestors. On the other hand, they are an attack page aganst the protestors and Estonia's Russian community. The title uses the word Tiblad, which could be translated as "Russian bitches" (or "Niggers"). Some of the photograps also seem to be selected to dehumanize proterstors (closeups of man with no teeth).

Leaving out the link would be bad for the article. However I believe it would be wrong to link to the page without warning the reader of its expicit racist message. Not including the title as the link text would only create an ugly easter egg

Also, as this article is about ethnic tensions in Estonia, it is appropreate to include examples of racism and hate speech as references. -- Petri Krohn 03:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no way you could translate "tibla" into "Russian bitch". At best, it is similarly derogatory term like "tscuhna", which is widely used in Russia about Estonians. "Tibla" simply does not have a translation in English, as far as I know. DLX 06:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
'Tibla' is a word like 'fritz' for Germans (especially for German soldiers) by neighbours of Germany, or 'paddy' for Irish people by ethnic English. It is a slang word; it is not inherently a slur, and while it does imply a particular stereotype, it is usually not used ethnicity-based, but culture-based. (Of course, being a slang word, it's also used in other ways, and sometimes by xenophobes. Also obviously, its users may fail to differentiate the culture from its people.) Such "neighbourly slurs", alas, can not be well translated.
As for the 'You whore!' exclamation; at best, it may be an etymology for the word, but it is definitely not a translation. One popular folk etymology says that 'ty bljad' (which *is* roughly Russian for 'you whore') used to be a common expletive among Russian soldiers, thus prompting Estonian villagers who had contact with them to start call them by that phrase. Obviously, such a "bird-call loan", even if it happened, removed the original meaning. To consider 'you whore' the translation of 'tibla' is just as absurd as to think that 'septic tank' is the translation of the Cockney word 'seppo', which is typically used to refer to Americans. Digwuren 17:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I tried to track down the aforementioned tchuhnya (чухня). I heard and occasionally used this word meaning "crap". It may be related to чухонец, which is according to Dal's dictionary is St. Petersburg's slang for local Finns. I vaguely remember this word being used by Pushkin. Yury Petrachenko 08:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
По мшистым, топким берегам
Чернели избы здесь и там,
Приют убогого чухонца;
И лес, неведомый лучам
В тумане спрятанного солнца,
Кругом шумел.... А.С. Пушкин
Petri Krohn has not demonstrated that this page is the best photo document available, nor is the article about alleged ethnic tensions, it is about the Bronze Soldier. Adding this link is highly inappropriate, there are many Russian rascist neo-Nazi links that can added too. Martintg 06:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is about the Bronze soldier controversy and the related Estonian ethnic tensions. It was decided before to keep all of these in one place, here. This will later be divided into two or more separate articles about the controversy and the monument. So for now, this is an appropriate place to write about the tensions, before they die out.Yury Petrachenko 07:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I am a native speaker of Russian and I have never heard the "widely used" word Tsuhna. As for Tiblad, the more exact translation is not "Russian bitch" but "you bitch". If this is used in Estonia as a name for Russians in general, I am very disappointed to find this out. --Irpen 06:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Mrmm, just a question, "tyi suka" (so weird to write Russian with Latin alphabet) would be "you bitch". "Tyi bladt" would translate exactly how? Also, I suspect that by far most Estonians are not aware of the origins of this pre-WWII (afaik) word and use it without realizing the original meaning. Compare it to term also used in Russia about Estonians, "kuraty" (from kurat, the Devil in Estonian, also a common swearing word). And you must admit that perhaps those rioters (more then 2/3 with criminal record) were not perhaps the best representatives of Russians (before you accuse me of racism, I have several Russian friends, one of my relatives is married to a Russian. I car-pool with a half-Russian when coming to work).
As for the "tchuhna", it is pretty widely used about Estonians and Finns. Finnish wikipedia even has a stub about it ([9]), I am sure Petri can translate it for us. DLX 06:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I think this whole "Tibla" thing is a strawman. Should we search for one or two private Russian websites that contain insulting or racist comments, then post it as "evidence" that Russians are rascist in general, as Petri Krohn has done in regard to this private Estonian website? That kind of cheap shot shouldn't be too difficult I suspect. Martintg 07:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
There's another important aspect to the word 'tibla'.
In its modern incarnation, the word was mainly popularised by the comic character and freedom fighter caricature Ivan Orav. Besides that, it is pretty much only used by WWII veterans of non-Russian sides in Estonia -- not even their descendants. Hence, the word has also a good grain of comic relief irrevocably attached to it, and its usage is almost invariably more for dramatic effect than for any actual classification of people, or out of intent to insult. Digwuren 18:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Again DLX and other estonian users try to move discussion out of context. I personally never never heard or read words tsuhna or kurat. But this is not the main question. Look at relevant russian articles/blogs and look how they call estonians. The strongest expression is "fascists" used by some. Here we have the whole page called "tiblad". A could cite another couple of links. So the issue raised by Petri is justified. Beatles Fab Four 07:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Finnish article in WP is not a source of anything. Several native Russian speakers here say that they have not heard those as you say widely use derogatory names for Estonians and Finns. I know a couple of anecdotes, yes, but those have no such terminology and the anecdotes that I know are rather inoffensive. Much less than the American Polish Jokes which are rather harsher and dumb. --Irpen 07:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It may be just me, but I see a term "fascists" by far more insulting and derogatory then name derived from common swear phrase, but that really isn't the issue here. Petri's note was very much out of line - as was inclusion of this web link. Sure, there have to be Estonians, who hate Russians (I don't know any), but they are extremists. So, do we start including links from Russian neo-nazis/neo-stalinists/putinists as well or shall we keep this an encyclopedia?
As for the "tchuhna", please use a Russian search engine - using Russian spelling, of course, as well. DLX 08:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Here you go [10].Yury Petrachenko 08:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

'Tibla' doesn't mean 'russian', but 'soviet' (indication of mentality, not nationality). Like the 'kuraty' name for estonians was derived from widely-used estonian expression literally meaning 'devil' and used as mild expletitive, the word 'tibla' was derived from liberators' vocabulary. Older 'chukhna' derives from even older 'chud', used in pre-czar Russia to denote all finno-ugric nations. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 12:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

About the russian insult word for estonians - it is in time generated from Chud, historically what was used by slavic tribes for western-nordic-finnougrian tribes, now used as an insult.

"tibla" is not used anywhere in estonian press, and it's usage among people is not widespread at all. Origin of it is from another russian popular insult "tõ bljadt". "tibla" is not in itself a synonyme for russian, but used to distinguish so called 'scum' - criminals, bums, drunks etc.

On another important note - about the teargas - the clouds that are seen on those forementioned pictures from about 21:30 and in many-many videos clearly, was NOT teargas, as wrongly published in multiple Russian press articles ! What was used there was pulverised fire extinguisher, not hazardous to humans. http://tamrex.struktuur.ee/441

Only effect is somewhat dirty look, like its visible in some later pictures of demonstrants. Nor the Estonian riot-police squad or ordinary police have large scale teargas devices, only carry miniature gascanisters on belt. Only massive anti-riot device that was used was two trucks with water cannons, the one used first night broke and second night another was used. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.65.192.21 (talk) 13:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

No real point, you'll have dozens of russian sources linked to you claiming the powder on rioters' clothes is typical of teargas use. 213.35.234.15 14:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Edit summary

Generally one should not read too much into edit summaries. They do not have the same authority as edits in talk pages or articles. Also, they are limited to 200 characters, so the true meaning may not fit into the space.

Regarding this edit summary: One should note it was part of a edit war with a pro-Russian editor. The whole exchange is repeated below:

  1. renamed section to - →Protest and riots - + photos: Tiblad Tõnismäel 26.04.2007
  2. what a link with RACIST nickname for non-estonians is doing here?!
  3. restored link. 1) Excellent set of photograps documents peaceful nature of protest. 2) Caveat clearly states out derogatory nature of page title
  4. I strongly disagree. It harasses non-estonian readers
  5. Yes - but it also proves that Estonians are racists, if not Nazis.
  6. Only few estonians are racists. We shouldn't follow this behavior. Be polite, please!
    1. ok?
  7. moved note to refs

Now that I have more than 200 characters available, I will rephrase the comment:

  • You User:Beatles Fab Four, as an pro-Russian editor, should forget the insult and support this formulation, as it gives support to the Russian view that many Estonians are racists, even giving credibility the the depiction of Estonians as born again Nazis.

-- Petri Krohn 04:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, your formulation slanders the majority of good Estonians who don't hold the views of a small extremist minority. Should we characterise all Russians by the few Russian neo-Nazi skinheads we occasionally see in the media? Martintg 06:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I was clearly stupid to expect Petri Krohn to realize his mistake and appologise. But I guess that as all Estonians must be racists then I do not deserve appologise in his view. And now Petri Krohn has openly admitted [11] that he is pushing anti-Estonian POV and is calling other Russians to follow his lead.--Staberinde 07:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the find. It answers a few things that have been puzzling me. Digwuren 18:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think we all realize that Petri's remark was an unfortunate one. However, two days have passed and it is time to move on. If you need an apology, I can give you one on behalf of the Russian-speaking community. Trying to extract an apology from someone against their will is rather silly, IMO. If you really can't move on past this, start an RfC. I would rather discuss the article and put this incident behind. --Irpen 07:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I do not demand an appology, just I thought it would be good way to calm down situation and show some respect. And I personally will not start RfC(although someone else may). Also I do not think that we need to continue discussing it here at the moment, but I seriously doubt that these remarks will be forgotten. Btw, I do not blame Russian-speaking community, stupididy has never recognized ethnic borders.--Staberinde 07:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Image

Yes, I did add an image of the grave site to this talk page, to the sections discussing the exact location of the graves and the bus stop. A also took the picture and uploaded it to Wikimedia Commons.

As to the comment/image caption. It has been speculated that this conflict may cause an new Cold War between Russia and the West. One must ask whether the Estonian government was aware of the consequences of its actions. It seems to me that they were aware, and acted partly as a provocation. In the parliamentary elections this was one on their themes, mayby even the deciding factor in the outcome. If this controversy ever leads to war, hot or cold, I hold the Estonian government responsible. -- Petri Krohn 05:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Occupation of Baltic states

The Occupation of Baltic states article should be linked and maybe a part of discussion moved there. Xx236 08:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Stop this bullshit. The only reason that the baltics hate USSR, is because they are self-eated with hate. They baltic people feel little, useless. Everything that the baltic countries now have is thanks to the Soviet Unian. Technology, ruads, everything, and that makes them hate soviets even more. In their everyday life they see that all that they have, was made by the Soviets, and that makes them feel small, and that makes them hate the Soviets. M.V.E.i. 17:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Stop this [CENSORED]. We had "ruads", technology... strong economy and high living standards before Soviets occupied Baltic States. We "hate" Soviet Union, because they killed tens of thousands - closer to two hundred thousand, if you include all three countries - civilians in Baltics, set our life back for decades (we gained independence on 1991, we might reach our living standards relatively comparable to pre-WWII (similar to Denmark, better then Finland) in another twenty years, perhaps. And most of all, you took from us our independent countries and freedom for fifty years. Now, why exactly were we supposed to love the monster called Soviet Union? DLX 17:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
No you didn't. I read many history books, by many writers, from different countries. One thing is shure: The Baltic tribes were always considered the most primitive among Europe. You forgot how your Baltic union The Lithuanian Kingdom in the middle ages started a war against Russians? You started it, so relax. The Russians were to soft ith you, you deserved more. Besides, USSR never killed Baltic people (Except at World War 2, but that were Baltic Nazis killed, there not considered people). How excacly did we take your freedom?? We gave you technology, everything. Even your cinema, thought it sucked, always got money from the USSR in hope you will do somthing with it. Don't love it, just stop expressing your "little-guy-sindrome". It's disscusting. M.V.E.i. 19:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Certainly not true. In the early 1900's the literacy rate of Estonians was over 96 percent. Elsewhere in Europe other countries lagged behind: Spain-44 percent, Austria-hungary-77 percent and France-83 percent. [12]. Literacy in Russia was even worse, according to the 1897 census, 24 percent of Russia's population were literate [13]. Martintg 00:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)