Talk:Bronx High School of Science

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Bronx High School of Science was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: November 24, 2006
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[edit] Principal Reidy

There was breathless reporting today of problems between teachers and principal Redy. Someone else reverted it, because it was unsourced and didn't have a Neutral Point of View (WP:NPOV). My own feeling, and it is just one person's opinion, is that a short summary would stick if it were (a) short, (b) less one-sided, and (c) had documentation -- newspaper story, etc. Otherwise, it is just defamatory gossip. YMMV. Bellagio99 14:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually there is a great deal of independent reporting on conflicts between Reidy, parents, staff, and ot seems the rest of the world - but it is less clear if it belongs in an encyclopedia article about the school, at this time. Tvoz |talk 17:54, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merger

I propose that The Bronx High School of Science List of Distinguished Alumni be merged into this article. It would be listcruft. Bearian 17:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, since that article is empty and this one still has such a list, you should probably just propose the List article for deletion. The user who created it has had over a month to fill out the list, and there still isn't anyone there, so it's really a dead end. RossPatterson 22:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


The page was empty and unnecessary as we have a sufficient list here. I did it as a redirect - won't that work? Tvoz |talk 03:21, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear: only the separate page that someone set up for distinguished alumni, but never filled in, has appropriately been removed. It was empty and is handled in this article. Tvoz |talk 17:52, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Bxscience logo.jpg

Image:Bxscience logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Bxscience logo.jpg

Image:Bxscience logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. [User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] 04:44, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does This Para. Belong?

There is a polite disagreement between me and ElKevbo about whether the following paragraph belongs in the Bronx HS of Science article (near the top):

Bronx Science has developed a worldwide reputation as one of the best high schools in the United States, public or private. It attracts an intellectually gifted blend of culturally, ethnically, and economically diverse students from New York City.

I say keep it in; El wants to delete as unsourced.

My reasons: 1. It's been in for a long time (sorry, I haven't done the history, but I have been watching for more than 6 months and have always seen it in). I know this ain't a great reason, but

2. It's self-evidentally true, just as it would be for Harvard at a university level.

3. It's well documented throughout the rest of the article.

4. If somebody wants to source it more externally, fine; I don't have the time. But I think reasons 2, 3 (and perhaps 1) are compelling. Indeed, given its lenghty history, perhaps the opposite should be proved: show us that it is not a world-famous school filled with ethnically diverse, smart kids.

Bellagio99, who is (of course) a Bx Sci alum.

Bellagio99 17:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
It's not self-evident to most people and thus it needs to be sourced. Please support it with citations or remove it as the burden of proof is on those wish the information to be included. --ElKevbo 17:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Remove it as original research. --Tom 18:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, while I think it is an accurate statement, I'd like to know precisely which part of it is deemed as needing sources - the fact that it has a worldwide reutation? that is is seen to be on of the best high schools in the US, public or private? that it "intellectually gifted blend of culturally, ethnically, and economically diverse students" ? I'm not being facetious - which part(s) do you think needs sourcing, and I'll see what I can find. Tvoz |talk 19:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The entire statement lacks citations. I'm not sure why this is at all contentious or difficult or why WP:V would not apply here. It's entirely possible that other references already cited can be used to substantiate these grandiose and unprovable claims but they need to be supported otherwise they're just POV academic boosterism. We (purposefully) don't even have such a statement in other articles (like Harvard) for precisely these reasons. State the facts and let the readers drawn their own conclusions.
I think the claims should be removed entirely but if you can provide some really good references then I'll compromise by allowing them to stay. --ElKevbo 19:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Tvoz completely and wholeheartedly. I believe in everything that has been said. For your sourcing pleasure:
[1]
"The Bronx High School of Science, one of the most famous schools in the country, has a proud history of training not only scientists but also authors, business executives, and academic leaders."
"A student who enrolled at Bronx Science after attending private school for many years praises the school's diversity and the fact that students are "down to earth and social."
[2]
"The Bronx High School of Science is fairly one of the best known names in the world. Having produced more Nobel prize winners than most nations (seven in total, all in physics) and five Pulitzer Prize winners, the Bronx High School of Science takes education seriously. But that is not all that Bronx High School of Science takes seriously. It has dozens of clubs, teams, and a shocking number of opportunities (think dark room, green house and holocaust museum). It offers any student a great opportunity to learn in a challenging and safe environment."
[3]
"The primary goal of our educational process is to teach gifted young people to identify problems, devise and test solutions, analyze outcomes and apply information to novel situations."
[4]
That article echoes the previous sources. I was actually sat down with the author of that article, when he visited the school. However, my name was not included in the article.
--rocketrye12 talk/contribs 03:20, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I am not impressed with some of those sources. The second source, associatedcontent.com, doesn't appear to be reliable as it "is an online publishing showcase where everyone -- from experts and enthusiasts to amateurs and professionals - can become a Content Producer and submit original material on virtually any topic for distribution." The third source, schools.nyc.gov, appears to be self-authored and thus not terribly reliable in this context. The quote from the last source appears to come from the subject and thus is also not very good as supporting the assertion that "this school is great!"
I'm sure that there are other sources that support the assertion and I look forward to their inclusion in the article. For example, one or more of the references cited above note that unusually high number of Nobel laureates that have graduated from this institution. That is an excellent example of a fact that should be highlighted and cited as a fact that establishes the educational quality of the institution without relying on shifty sources or hopelessly subjective evaluations. --ElKevbo 03:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Dear ElKevbo, The complete list of Nobel winners -- and other notables (excuse the pun) -- already exists further down in the article. Much of the claim for notability is self-documenting in the remainder of the article. Bellagio99 20:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notables Documented

Here is the notables list from the article. I've kept a good patrol since Oct 06 in stopping questionable notables from being listed. Bellagio99 22:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


The Bronx High School of Science counts seven Nobel Prize-winning physicists among its graduates:

Leon N. Cooper 1947, Brown University awarded the 1972 Nobel Prize in Physics Sheldon L. Glashow 1950, Boston University, awarded the 1979 Nobel Prize in Physics Steven Weinberg 1950, University of Texas at Austin, awarded the 1979 Nobel Prize in Physics Melvin Schwartz 1949, Columbia University, awarded the 1988 Nobel Prize in Physics Russell A. Hulse 1966, Princeton University, awarded the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics H. David Politzer 1966, California Institute of Technology, awarded the 2004 Nobel Prize in Physics Roy J. Glauber 1941, Harvard University, awarded the 2005 Nobel Prize in Physics

No other secondary school in the world has seven Nobel laureates as alumni.[35]

If Bronx Science were a country, it would be tied at 23rd with Spain for number of Nobel laureates (as of 2007). [36] Were Bronx Science a university, it would be tied for 53rd place, matching Duke University and handily beating Ivy League schools Brown and Dartmouth, as well as academic powerhouses such as Purdue, the University of Virginia, and Swarthmore. [37]

Bronx Science also has five Pulitzer Prize-winning graduates:

William Sherman 1963, reporter at the New York Daily News, awarded 1974 William Safire 1947, author and columnist at The New York Times, awarded 1978 Joseph Lelyveld 1954, Executive Editor at The New York Times, awarded 1986 Bernard L. Stein 1959, Editor of the Riverdale Press, awarded 1998 William Taubman 1958, Professor of Political Science at Amherst College, awarded 2004

Six alumni have won the National Medal of Science, the nation's highest scientific honor bestowed by the U.S. President and thus far awarded to 425 scientists and engineers. Bronx Science also counts among its graduates twenty-nine current members of the United States National Academy of Sciences (NAS), an honor attained by only about 2,000 American scientists. Twenty-two current members of the United States National Academy of Engineering (NAE) and ten current members of the Institute of Medicine (IOM) are Bronx Science graduates.

Other notable graduates and former students include:

Richard Alba 1959, sociologist of Italian-American life, Vice-President of American Sociological Association Bruce Ames 1946, biologist, winner of National Medal of Science Judith Baumel 1973, poet, winner Walt Whitman Award, 1987 Rosemary Bravo 1969, Vice Chairman, Burberry, former President, Saks Fifth Avenue Harold Brown 1943, former U.S. Secretary of Defense (1977-1981) Stokely Carmichael 1960, Black Power activist Majora Carter 1984, recipient of MacArthur Foundation fellowship ("genius grant") Gregory Chaitin 1964, mathematician, computer scientist Marsha Chandler 1964?, Executive Vice President/Chief Operating Officer at the Salk Institute; former Executive Vice Chancellor, University of California San Diego Dominic Chianese 1948, actor (best known as "Uncle Junior" on the HBO series The Sopranos) Jon Cryer 1983, actor Richard J. Danzig 1961, 71st Secretary of the U.S. Navy Bobby Darin (as Walden Robert Cassotto) 1953, singer, songwriter, actor Samuel Delany 1960, science fiction author E. L. Doctorow 1948, author of Ragtime and other books Jonah Falcon 1988, talk show host Jon Favreau 1984, actor/director Jerald G. Fishman,1962, CEO, Analog Devices Jeffrey S. Flier,1964, Dean, Harvard Medical School Todd Gitlin 1959, writer and social critic, former head, Students for a Democratic Society Harrison J. Goldin 1953, former NYC Comptroller Jeff Greenfield 1960, CNN reporter/commentator Pablo Guzmán (as Paul Guzman) 1968, CBS-2 reporter Clyde Haberman 1962, New York Times reporter/columnist Michael Hirsh 1960s, Head, Cookie Jar group (animation); founder, Nelvana animation Martin Hellman, 1962, Computer Scientist Scott Ian (as Scott Ian Rosenfeld) 1982, rock musician Martin Jay,1961, prominent intellectual historian Michael Kay 1978, New York Yankees sportscaster Leonard Kleinrock, 1951, computer scientist Leslie Lamport, 1957, computer scientist Leonard Lauder, 1950, former president Estee Lauder Inc., and an heir to the Estee Lauder fortune. Ronald Lauder 1961, former NYC mayoral candidate and an heir to the Estee Lauder fortune, former US Ambassador to Austria Bill Lann Lee 1967, United States Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights, Clinton Administration James Kyson Lee 1993, actor Jeanette Lee, professional pool player (attended, did not graduate) Harold O. Levy 1970, former New York City Schools' Chancellor Daniel Libeskind 1965, Freedom Tower architect John Liu 1985, New York City Council Member Nita Lowey 1955, Member, U.S. House of Representatives Anthony Marx 1977, President, Amherst College Marvin Minsky 1945, computer scientist Robert Moog 1952, synthesized music pioneer Al Nagler, 1953, optical engineer, founder of Televue Lars-Erik Nelson, 1959, award-winning correspondent and columnist for New York Daily News, Newsweek, Newsday Jay Pasachoff 1959, astronomy professor Martin Peretz 1955, editor-in-chief, The New Republic magazine Kevin Phillips,1957, author and political analyst Richard Price 1967, author and Oscar-nominated screenwriter Robert Price 1950, NYS Commissioner of Investigation Paul Provenza 1975, actor Christopher "Kid" Reid 1982, rap musician and actor Daphne Maxwell Reid 1966, actress Ben Shneiderman 1964, developer of computer visualization and human-computer interaction April Smith 1967, author, Emmy-nominated television producer and writer Dava Sobel 1964, author Michael I. Sovern, former President of Columbia University Norman Spinrad 1957, science fiction author and screenwriter Robert Strom 1961, 2nd biggest winner, The $64,000 Question TV show Worley Thorne, 1950, TV writer and script consultant ("The Paper Chase," "Dallas," "Star Trek: The Next Generation") Neil deGrasse Tyson 1976, Director, Hayden Planetarium at American Museum of Natural History Eliot Wald 1962, TV and film writer ("Saturday Night Live," "Camp Nowhere") Gary Weiss,1971, journalist and author Barry Wellman 1959, sociologist, founder of International Network for Social Network Analysis, Fellow Royal Society of Canada Wolf Wigo 1991, Olympic water polo player Dave Winer 1972, computer scientist, blogger George Yancopoulos 1976, scientist, elected to the National Academy of Sciences Bellagio99 22:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] vandalism with my name

all fields in the in the info box were replaced with my name in an act of vandalism. The ip is traced to great neck, ny, and I believe I know who did this. It's embarassing, nonetheless.--rocketrye12 talk/contribs 15:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo of campus

Anyone noticed something a little odd about the picture of the campus? Like the fact that it looks exactly like the Temple of Bacchus? I know some parts of the Bronx are run-down but... MrBlondNYC 08:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think someone uploaded an image of the same name and it replaced the original mural image. I have now rm it from the article. -Herenthere (Talk) 23:11, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grace Wong

I first deleted Grace Wong as a notable alumni, but now have reverted my deletion as I found this mention of her as coming from "New York". [5] It would be nice to have direct Bx Sci attribution though. We know we are/were brainy; beauty is great too! ;-) Bellagio99 23:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

No! Grace wong is nobody! I graduated with her...class of 2007. Vandalism and should be reverted as such. Cheers!--rocketrye12 talk/contribs 05:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Kwan Hing Wong - which is the pageant Grace Wong's name according to multiple unrelated sources, who is from New York and 21 years and a college student (which sounds right), is listed in the alumni list for the class of 2004, Ryan. Yours must be a different Grace Wong. I think this one may be correct, but am trying to find reliable sources. I actually had checked it when her name was first added and I found something then that specifically linked the Miss Hong Kong paeant Grace Wong/Kwan Hing Wong to Science, but now I'm having trouble finding it. Tvoz |talk 06:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Wow,that post was late at night. I'm embarrassed, I didn't thoroughly look into it!--rocketrye12 talk/contribs 21:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Even if there was only one Grace Wong (a little unlikely in NYC, I'll admit!), "Grace wong is nobody! I graduated with her" is a statement of original research and can't be used to justify removing her from the list. Now, something like "beauty queens aren't notable" is a completely different story, but I'd argue that Miss Hong Kong qualifies. RossPatterson 22:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Even a runner up.... This is maddening - I wasn't the poster, but when I saw it I checked it out as I always do with new entries to the alum list, and I know that I found a reasonable source in addition to the Science alumni lists that said specifically that the pageant winner went to Science. But now I can't find it - I left a note on the poster's page to see if he has a source. I wouldn't object to it being removed pending location of a source, or keeping it there for now since I know I saw a source previously, but I'd like a little more than the circumstantial evidence of Kwan Hing Wong=class of 2004 (confirmed) , Grace Wong (pageant)=Kwan Hing Wong (confirmed) but - this is the tricky part - the specific alum Kwan Hing Wong=the pageant Grace Wong. In mathematics if a=b and b=c, then a=c - but in real life, well, not necessarily. Tvoz |talk 23:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Grace Wong is from the high school. She said it on the her personal forum and it is confirmed by the school as I sent a e-mail to the school regarding the issue. The school has confirmed her as a 2004 graduate. The forum source is here: forum message. Scroll down to the November 8, 2007 posts to see the message.

Sam72991 (talk) 00:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, great - she's in there. But I edited her accomplishments down to one example - Miss Hong Kong 1st runner up seems to me to be her highest achievement - that would be "bigger" than Miss Chinatown - and I don't think we should list more than one example. Perhaps others disagree. Tvoz |talk 08:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay. I also added her as a top 15 semifinalist also since that is a international beauty pageant in the world.

Sam72991 (talk) 18:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)