Talk:British Rail Class 378

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on March 10, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

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[edit] Article naming and proposed deletion

Before anyone asks, the source of the number and the image is a TfL flyer advertising London Overground - the front of this flyer is an artist's impression of the new train which carries the number 378 000. Hammersfan 09/02/07, 11.05 GMT

If there's no explicit mention of the number in the flyer, then that's not really solid enough to state as fact. I think the language needs tweaking to reflect this (It's also possible that the two types will be different classes). And is there a cite for the ELL units being DC only? --88.111.177.208 23:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
While I have no wish to get into a slanging match, I would simply ask the question "why would TfL publish a CG picture of an artist's impression with the number 378 000 if they weren't actually going to be Class 378. Also, as regards the DC only thing, there are no overhead wires being installed as part of the ELL upgrades, and TfL have explicitly stated that the NLL units will be dual voltage, while saying no such thing about the ELL units. Hammersfan 08/03/07, 16.40 GMT

I've nuked the page and redirected to the main LO article. This page contained zero information that wasn't either unvarifiable conjecture on your part or a duplicate what's already there. Numbers found lurking in promotional images do not count as a verifiable source for anything. Sorry. --Dtcdthingy 00:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry too. Because one objection does not make a consensus. This page has been here for a month and no one else has objected. I repeat "why would TfL go to all the trouble of publishing an artist's impression of their new train with a number, then have a different number?". Do you think I would have actually written the thing unless I was confident of the veracity of what I was writing? As a consequence, I am reinstating this page from your "nuke" (what a very adult way of putting it by the way) unless or until more than one person raises a legitimate objection. Hammersfan, 10/03/07, 19.20 GMT
An equally likely explanation is they they told their graphics dept "Put 378 on there, it doesn't really matter". Because it doesn't. They have no obligation to get the number correct in such a context. I've formally nominated the page for deletion, since this talk page is very low traffic, so most people aren't even aware of the flimsiness of the sourcing. --Dtcdthingy 20:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Then you should see TfL Board Meeting, 25/10/06 Agenda Item 4, Page 5 "Following the announcement for 44 trains for London Overground services, Bombardier have started mobilisation at their Derby plant. The first trains will be delivered in late 2008 and have been categorised by Network Rail as Class 378s." I believe that counts as verifible evidence. Large organisations don't add things to official images "because it doesn't really matter". Well, they certainly don't where I come from. Hammersfan 11/03/07, 12.45 GMT
[1] [2] Two seperate independent rail websites also list this as Class 378 Hammersfan 11/03/07, 13.30 GMT
As far as I see it, the discussion is now CLOSED. The Deletion notice will be removed in the next 24 hours. ALECTRIC451 13:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
AFD's run for a time frame then someone in charge counts the votes (which are going towards keep now), don't jump the gun ;) Pickle 15:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Just to clarify, the admin doesn't count the votes, its not that simple. They read through the whole AfD and make a judgement based upon the discussion. Adambro 15:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe that an article which is supposedly under a recognised Wikipedia Project can get proposed for deletion in this manner. What is the point of having the Wiki Trains Project if they do not have control/ownership of the pages related to their subject matter?? Surely, the Wiki Trains Project should have the ultimate say ... or am I being niaive. ALECTRIC451 17:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you are being naive. Any article can be proposed for deletion, regardless of its significance, if an editor believes that it does not conform to the appropriate guidelines. Also, there is no such thing as ownership of articles on Wikipedia, see Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. Members of the Trains project have no higher status than any other editors. The idea of a project is merely to aid collaboration between editors with a common interest. The project "may develop guidelines, maintain various collaborative processes, keep track of work that needs to be done, and act as a forum where issues of interest to the editors of a subject may be discussed" (from What is a WikiProject?). As such, an article tagged as this one is, is not owned by or the responsibility of the project. It is just an article considered to be of relevance to the project and therefore likely to benefit from the support of other editors knowledgeable of that topic. Adambro 17:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FOI request from TfL

I've received the following reply from TfL regarding my Freedom of Information request about the designation of this class:

Thank you for your information access request dated 11 March, which was received by Transport for London (TfL) on the same day. You asked TfL to clarify information about the East London Line.
Your request has been considered under the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act and I can confirm that TfL does hold the information you require.
I can confirm that the rolling stock for London Overground (built by Bombardier) is a customised Electrostar Class 378.
The Rolling Stock Library has allocated the following Class numbers for the new Electrostar-based trains for London Overground:

  • Class 378/0 for the 3-Car Dual Voltage Units for North London Railway (Initial order - 24 Units)
  • Class 378/1 for the 4-Car DC Units for East London Line (Initial order - 20 Units).

Hammersfan 27/03/07, 10.00 BST

Good work with that, FOIA really does work ;) Pickle 12:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The 2007 issue of the "British Railways Locomotives & Coaching Stock" book by Platform  Publishing confirms the above (see Page 279). Miner2049er 16:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Ldn Ovrgrd Train Internal.JPG

Image:Ldn Ovrgrd Train Internal.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 06:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Y Done Pickle 23:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ELL DC only

I don't think there's a solid source stating the ELL units will be DC only - I don't think it's appeared in anything from TfL. Part of the stabling plan in the latest ORR application includes sending ELL units to Stratford, so there's a direct contradiction of the idea. I've therefore replaced the info with an uncontroversial statement that only mentions the possibility of them being DC only, though it still needs a source. --Mr Thant (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)