Talk:Brisbane punk rock

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Thankyou for your comments AGUYCALLEDRYAN. I do understand that the political element in your opinion, seems to have a bias. However, with Brisbane Punk Rock, it is believed by most who followed the movement in Brisbane relatively closely, that not to mention the political climate would be a travesty and be quite neglectful to what was a highly influential factor of the scene. As with the punk movement in general, whatever bands that propergated in their own region often reflected the mood and styles of the bands. To use an analogy, for instance English naturalist, Charles Darwin's evolutionary discovery of the indiginous animals of the Galapagos Islands. "Darwin noticed that each island supported its own form of finch which were closely related but differed in important ways." http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/darwin_charles.shtml

Dick Hebdige Professor of Film Studies and Art Studio has written many articles and books on the subject of subculture and the insular effects on subculture. His works would reiterate my stance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Hebdige

There is more than substantial evidence about Brisbane Punk Rock's local association with the Queensland Police available on the internet and in various books about the subject. A specific book is called "Pig City" is a good guide. The title was named after a popular song released in 1984 about Brisbane's corruption and political use of the law.

"Pig City: from the Saints to Savage Garden by Andrew Stafford (Paper C Format) ISBN 0702233609 Category History - Australian Pages 336 Release Date October 4th, 2004

From cult heroes the Saints and the Go-Betweens to national icons Powderfinger and international stars Savage Garden, Brisbane has produced more than its share of great bands. But behind the music lay a ghost city of malice and corruption.

Pressed under the thumb of the Bjelke-Petersen government and its toughest enforcers - the police - Brisbane's musicians, radio announcers and political activists braved ignorance, harassment and often violence to be heard.

Pig City maps the shifts in musical, political and cultural consciousness that have shaped the city's history and identity. This is Brisbane's story - the story of how a city finally grew up." http://www.uqp.uq.edu.au/book_details.php?id=0702233609

Although I will accept your future adjudication, I would like impress your judgement with the thought that if one was to critique the Mona Lisa painting, how would it be if her smile was ignored? – — … ° ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ ± − × ÷ ← → · § 220.238.25.253 01:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


Hi, sorry I didn't reply sooner, I've been pretty busy at study+work and haven't had much time to edit wikipedia. Nonetheless I'll be around for the next couple of days, so I'll see if I can explain myself more wholly.
My main issue with the article is the over emphasis that it gives to the political climate at the time, while it is understood that this is a large influence on the scene, it is not what should be comprising the entire article (this would only be the case if the article was, say, Political Backgrounds to Brisbane Punk Rock). I believe this could be corrected by dividing the article into a number of sections, one with the Background/Influences where you can talk about the political climate, and then other sections such as History, Music Style, Notable Bands, Subculture etc where you only discuss the government in a neutral tone if it directly relates to the section (eg if police closed a concert it would be allowable to mention it, but it would be ill advised to proceed to discuss how this act demonstrated the corrupt nature of the government). If you read over WP:NPOV it discusses giving undue weight to a particular component of an article, and Brisbane Punk Rock incorporates many other elements such as Music Style which should be addressed rather than raving on about how the government imposed upon civil liberties.
My second issue, and possibly a larger one, is the blurring between fact and opinion. Many aspects of the article are simply not fact, quotes such as "people were victimised simply for their looks" are presented as gospel when they simply a matter of opinion. Similarly there is a large problem with the sourcing of the article. For the sakes of clarity, I'm going to list every point.
  • In the first paragraph, the section on people being victimised. Not only is this POV but all bar one of the references go to another wikipedia article which does not support their claims. The simple fact is a governments decision regarding land rights or the control permits regarding protests does not indicate a desire to victimise a certain group of people. The remaining link goes to a personal website which is pretty well unsourced in its information (all coming from a single person who I couldn't find information on) and is hardly a reliable source. Reliable sources which could be used to support this include official reports, established media journals, something which demonstrates that the government was actually victimising people.
  • The quip about the unjust voting system, unless it can be shown that the Queensland government actually exploited a gerrymander (while a band may be well meaning in its lyrics they can be hardly taken as gospel, a commission, independant media report etc is more valid). The use of "unjust" without sourcing is simply POV
  • The quips about undercover police and raids without provocation, while "On the Street" may be a media source it cannot explain the activities of the police unless it in turn has been sourced from the police or a related government/independant commission. As I don't have the article I'm relying on you to decide whether or not it does.
  • The girl being arrested and interrogated for hours is hearsay, and unless confirmed by official sources (arrest report etc, once again the "On the Street" would need to have referenced these to be reliable) it is simply opinion, not fact
  • "backlashed to an oppessed society", even though it is sourced is blatant POV
  • "plagued by many disasters including regular raids by the Police", once again needs to be sourced. The connection between disaster and raids is clearly POV, the raids (if any) may have been justified by wholly legitimate reasons (searching for drugs, searching for weapons etc)
  • "questioned the heavy handedness of the Police at a raid", needs to be sourced, and the source needs to be reliable (all I can find on the program is that it was on radio, raising questions of possible bias in the presenter). The quip about the protester getting bashed against a police van and subsequently being charged is all based from memory, which is anything but reliable, and also remains unsourced at this point.
I was going to suggest you post at Wikipedia:Requests for feedback, however given the recent AfD and the opinions that the article needs a rewrite I think the removal of POV statements is now more urgent and I may chop a few myself. As I've said before, the article is clearly one of the most researched and most detailed articles to be created on wikipedia, but it may be wise to stop trying to criticise the government and add more information on other aspects of the movement, such as musical style and clothing, outside of the history section. Guycalledryan 09:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] rewrite of Brisbane Punk

Dear aguycalledryan,

Thank you for responding to my concerns. I have tried to address your extensive feedback and have tried to take into account the NPOV to suit Wikipedia’s policy. I have responded to your main issues regarding the article individually below and I have also rewritten the article. Please read the following response and rewritten article. My main issue with the article

1. is the over emphasis that it gives to the political climate at the time, while it is understood that this is a large influence on the scene, it is not what should be comprising the entire article (this would only be the case if the article was, say, Political Backgrounds to Brisbane Punk Rock).

a. this could be corrected by dividing the article into a number of sections, one with the Background/Influences where you can talk about the political climate,

b. and then other sections such as History, Music Style, Notable Bands,

I thought about doing something like what you say but I prefer to write in the sense of a time line.

2. Subculture etc where you only discuss the government in a neutral tone if it directly relates to the section (eg if police closed a concert it would be allowable to mention it, but it would be ill advised to proceed to discuss how this act demonstrated the corrupt nature of the government). If you read over WP:NPOV it discusses giving undue weight to a particular component of an article, and Brisbane Punk Rock incorporates many other elements such as Music Style which should be addressed rather than raving on about how the government imposed upon civil liberties.

I agree with what you are saying here and I have deleted most of the political background elements and rewrote most of the article giving, as you originally requested, more emphasis on the major bands.

3. My second issue, and possibly a larger one, is the blurring between fact and opinion. Many aspects of the article are simply not fact, quotes such as "people were victimized simply for their looks" are presented as gospel when they simply a matter of opinion. Similarly there is a large problem with the sourcing of the article. For the sakes of clarity, I'm going to list every point.

a. In the first paragraph, the section on people being victimized. Not only is this POV but all bar one of the references go to another wikipedia article which does not support their claims. The simple fact is a governments decision regarding land rights or the control permits regarding protests does not indicate a desire to victimize a certain group of people. The remaining link goes to a personal website which is pretty well unsourced in its information (all coming from a single person who I couldn't find information on) and is hardly a reliable source. Reliable sources which could be used to support this include official reports, established media journals, something which demonstrates that the government was actually victimising people.

As regard to the victimization and other elopements of the POV, I hope I have addressed these issues hopefully to your satisfaction but am still keeping the integrity of the culture vs. counter culture dynamic.

b. The quip about the unjust voting system, unless it can be shown that the Queensland government actually exploited a gerrymander (while a band may be well meaning in its lyrics they can be hardly taken as gospel, a commission, independent media report etc is more valid). The use of "unjust" without sourcing is simply POV

In light of the POV, I have eliminated this part of the article.

c. The quips about undercover police and raids without provocation, while "On the Street" may be a media source it cannot explain the activities of the police unless it in turn has been sourced from the police or a related government/independant commission. As I don't have the article I'm relying on you to decide whether or not it does.

I do believe that this is an honest account however, I have still eliminated this with respect to your POV.

d. The girl being arrested and interrogated for hours is hearsay, and unless confirmed by official sources (arrest report etc, once again the "On the Street" would need to have referenced these to be reliable) it is simply opinion, not fact

I have eliminated these elements from the article.


e. "backlashed to an oppessed society", even though it is sourced is blatant POV

Again, I have eliminated this.


f. "plagued by many disasters including regular raids by the Police", once again needs to be sourced. The connection between disaster and raids is clearly POV, the raids (if any) may have been justified by wholly legitimate reasons (searching for drugs, searching for weapons etc) "questioned the heavy handedness of the Police at a raid", needs to be sourced, and the source needs to be reliable (all I can find on the program is that it was on radio, raising questions of possible bias in the presenter).

In my article below, I have modified the content which leads the reader to form their own opinion on "plagued by many disasters" bit. I have eliminated the “heavy handedness of the police” comment.

g. The quip about the protester getting bashed against a police van and subsequently being charged is all based from memory, which is anything but reliable, and also remains unsourced at this point.

Agreed, and this had been eliminated.

4. I was going to suggest you post at Wikipedia:Requests for feedback, however given the recent AfD and the opinions that the article needs a rewrite I think the removal of POV statements is now more urgent and I may chop a few myself.

I have rewritten the article in light of this and have pasted it below for your perusal and opinion.


5. As I've said before, the article is clearly one of the most researched and most detailed articles to be created on wikipedia, but it may be wise to stop trying to criticise the government and add more information on other aspects of the movement, such as musical style and clothing, outside of the history section. Guycalledryan 09:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your detailed response, which would have no doubt taken some effort and time.

BRISBANE PUNK ROCK

Brisbane’s punk rock scene from 1975 – 1984 has been generally regarded and documented as producing “some of the most anarchistic bands of the Australian punk rock era” McFarlane, The Encyclopedia of Australian ROCK AND POP, pg.237, Allen and Unwin 1999. The development of Brisbane’s punk rock movement differed to all other cities, because of its isolation from the rest of Australia and because the scene received special attention from the local Police, which also generated uniquely, antagonistic and “snot” driven punk bands. Whilst these Brisbane bands had the environmental factors at play, it also could be seen from hindsight that the movement can be roughly dissected into three phases. First, there was the pioneering chapter, which lasted from 1975 to 1977. These bands were either innovators or part of the first wave of punk bands. Foremost of all Brisbane bands, The Saints were considered as “Aussie punk pioneers”. http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/70/70music02.htm Then the second phase could be placed somewhere between1978 to 1980 in which Ian MacFarlane coined the groups of this period “the second generation.” Ian McFarlane, The Encyclopedia of Australian ROCK AND POP, pg.706, Allen and Unwin 1999 The last period faceted “the third generation,” Ian McFarlane, The Encyclopedia of Australian ROCK AND POP, pg.661, Allen and Unwin 1999, of punk groups spanning from around 1981 – 1984 and diverged into two categories; the hardcore punk and the post punk-punk or dark punk.


History The Pioneers The Saints came to the attention of the English musical press with the “Stranded” single. This song arrived with much fanfare, as it fitted neatly into the conventional punk sound and attitude in London. Jon Savage, U.K. journalist and punk historian, noted that ‘The Saints’ “had been developing in near isolation for three years, but it took just one review in Sounds (magazine) to make their career.”Jon Savage, England’s Dreaming, page 246, Faber and Faber, 1991. The Saints arrived in England in 1977 but soon found that their hair and image didn’t fit the idealistic, English punk, stylistic dress codes. Basically the English were hoping for spiky hair and brothel creepers instead they got an image of street bums with attitude. Ed Kuepper, guitarist for The Saints reflected on their arrival in the U.K., “By the time we got here the initial spirit already died out, it was very contrived. There were too many people following slavishly after. We had problems because we didn’t look New Wave.” Jon Savage, England’s Dreaming, page 384, Faber and Faber, 1991. However, that aside, The Saints reached the U.K. charts with their song “This Perfect Day”, when the Sex Pistols were at their most infamous with their chart toping “God Save The Queen” single. Eventually in 1978 The Saints disbanded but not before releasing two albums, “(I’m) Stranded” and “Eternally Yours” and the classic “Know Your Product” single. As stated by the Australian Encyclopedia of Rock and Pop, “The band created one of the greatest R & B – fuelled rock songs of all time.” Ian McFarlane, The Encyclopedia of Australian ROCK AND POP, pg.548, Allen and Unwin 1999 The "Prehistoric Sounds" LP was released in 1979 posthumously. The Saints reformed in 1980; however, their punk edge was lost without “Ed Kuepper’s relentless power chords” Ian McFarlane, The Encyclopedia of Australian ROCK AND POP, pg.548, Allen and Unwin 1999 Around 1976 the Leftovers formed, to eventually gain local cult fame due to the stories of the band’s existentialist approach to life. “Everybody was starting to get really bad drug habits and walking over each other’s backs to finance the habits” said The Leftovers’ guitarist, Ed Wreckage, of their demise, back in 2000. http://www.dropkick.com.au/band.php?band_id=9-6k- The Leftovers were plagued by many disasters including regular raids by the Police. “The Leftovers seem to attract trouble, and with their infamy increasing, unfortunately their music is not.” Was one report of the band in 1977, reproduced in their compilation CD. The Fucken Leftovers hate you cd booklet, page 20, Dropkick, 2002 In 1979, they released their only single, “Cigarettes and Alcohol” and generally are considered part of Brisbane’s seminal punk history. Most of the members, including Warren Lamond, their singer, have now passed away. Another punk band from the early period was the Survivors. They were included on the Lethal Weapons compilation of Australian punk bands that came out in early 1978. Linear notes on their posthumously released album,”Worse than Perfect”, J.D. wrote of the band, “they made a couple of trips to Sydney where their own naivety ensured profits for promoters, become something of minor celebrities in their home town.” http://www.divinerites.com/6_surviv.htm Their drummer, Bruce Anthon, a proficient musician, went on to play various instruments for more sophisticated musical groups that did blues or jazz as well. During this era Brisbane punk rock occasioned mostly hall gigs such as the Hamilton Hall, and Toowong R.S.L hall as venues.

The Second Phase The Brisbane punk movement took off following 1978. A lot more bands formed and were given air time on Community radio station 4ZZZ. According to Toxico H, “4ZZZ FM DJs Michael Finucane, Carl (Bill) Rhiner and Andy Nehl were influential in playing the new music.” http://members.optusnet.com.au/~toxicoh/brisband.htm One of the bands that benefited from 4ZZZ airplay was Razar with their song “Task Force", which was a song about the Queensland Police Task Force special branch. As stated on page 2 of the ‘Behind the Banana Curtain’ CD, a compilation of Brisbane bands made by 4ZZZ, “Razar’s ‘Task Force’ released in 1978 on the Able Label referred to Brisbane’s notorious undercover police.” Razar, as most high-profile Brisbane punk acts during the late 1970s and early 1980s, like a beacon, attracted the interest of the local constabulary. Dave Darling, a concert promoter, recalled such events, “We encountered problems with police just like everybody else did that tried to run a venue...9 out of 10 of them I don’t think ever made the final song...and disguise them from Task Force knowing they were on, but eventually in the course of the night one of them would find out and next thing you know you had all of them there...” Dave Darling, Young, Fast & Non-Boring, page 53, Queensland Performance Arts Centre Museum, 2004

The Fun Things, originally known as The Aliens, were an outfit that exemplified the Detroit inspired “Sydney Sound” and did homage to the “spirit of their heroes”, Behind the Banana Curtain’, page 3, 4ZZZ, 2000, Radio Birdman with the song called “When the Birdmen Fly” released on The Fun Things self titled EP. However, songs like “Savage” easily outshone their homage track on the EP. Although The Fun Things were not as socially rebellious towards Brisbane society in relation to other Brisbane leading punk bands, they nevertheless enjoyed a reputation for tight energetic music. According to Brad Shepherd, singer/guitarist for the group, “The Fun Things were if not gifted plagiarists, at the very least a bunch of excitable Brisbane teenagers with extremely good taste in music.” Behind the Banana Curtain’, page 2, 4ZZZ, 2000.The band members, Brad Shepherd, John Hartley and Murray Shepherd went on to join other bands, most notably in the early to mid 1980s with the Hoodoo Gurus and The Screaming Tribesmen.

Minor players from this second phase included The Humans, The Toy Watches, Swell Guys, The Hard Ons (not to be confused with the later Sydney surf thrash band), The Fujiama Angels, The Young Identities and The Alphabet Children. Most of these bands, with the exception of The Humans, who supported The Stranglers at the Queens Hotel, played rather spasmodically, generally around hall gigs. Also in 1979 the song was “Sunset Strip” by The Numbers, later renamed The Riptides recorded an outstanding punk-like tune that had regular 4zzz airplay but it is regarded as more pop than punk rock. Venues that hosted punk gigs during this second phase include The Exchange Hotel, The Queens Hotel, The Curry Shop, The Baroona Hall, The Ahepa Hall, The Silver Dollar Disco, The Brisbane Hotel, Colossus Hall, Cloudland, The Majestic Hotel, Sally’s Coffee Lounge, Caxton St. Hall, Griffith and Queensland Universities and even Pips Nightclub. Other places worth a mention were Rotten Import Records, a shop dedicated to punk music in 1978 and The Elizabeth Street Bar (nicknamed White Chairs) which became an important hang out for those of a Punk/ New Wave/Alternative persuasion during the stretch of 1980 to 1987.

The Third Generation This phase centered on the early to mid 1980s. The dark mood of the bands reflected the changing dynamics of punk. According to Jason C. Reeher, “As the restrictive measures of punk, and all the clichéd fashion statements it entailed, came to a close, post punk groups took up the gauntlet. These exciting new bands used the DIY spirit to launch a more introspective, even gloomy, but still vibrant sound.” Many of the Brisbane bands got darker due to the post-punk fashion; however, many still retained its Brisbane seditious punk tradition. The two most prominent post punk-punk groups during this period were the Vampire Lovers, who played Goth and glam punk with garage tendencies, and the Mystery of Sixes, who leant more towards the hardcore punk scene. Both of these bands started at Zits, a.k.a. Kisses, a punk venue in the Fortitude Valley that allegedly had an assortment of criminal connections and various staff members into the black arts. “Part of the reason live music in The Valley was so prosperous during this time was the abundance of illegal brothels and casinos located in the area which were frequented on a regular basis” Flew, T. (2003). “Music, Cities and Cultural Policy: A Brisbane Experience,” paper presented to Sonic Synergies, Creative Cultures, University of South Australia, 17-20 July, pp. 13 The Mystery of Sixes self titled song “Mystery of Sixes” received substantial airplay on 4ZZZ. Jello Biafra, (Dead Kennedys) reviewed their EP’s songs as such; “this Brisbane band is a little more on the post-punk side. They definitely live in their own world, especially when the Arabic – style vocals on the title song are taken into account. The lyrics have satanic overtones.” Jello Biafra, Maximum Rock’n’Roll, issue No.10, 1983. Reminiscent of Black Flag, they pumped out their tough music with dark but forceful insight to their hardcore audience. Bez Jobson, their vocalist, diversified their sound by adding percussion to some of their songs. The Mystery of Sixes supported the Dead Kennedys in Brisbane in 1983; however they broke up in 1984. Meanwhile, the “notorious”, Ian McFarlane, The Encyclopedia of Australian ROCK AND POP, pg.661, Allen and Unwin 1999, Vampire Lovers were the type of group, according to the Bucket full Of Brains magazine, to “embody an enjoyably snotty early eighties zombie-punk-schlock vibe.” Hugh Gulland, Bucket full Of Brains #67, winter 2004. The band had a tumultuous kind of spirit that gained much notoriety throughout Brisbane, in which Jeff Dahl (Angry Samoans, Powertrip) said they reminded him “at times of the Pistols, The Germs, The Bonzo Dog Band and even early B-52s but it’s a stew of something much more disturbing. You get the feeling these guys weren’t ‘playing’ punk rockers.” Jeff Dahl, Carbon 13, #25, 2004. Their punk classic 1983 single “Buzzsaw Popstar”, with its trade mark chant became an instantaneous hit at 4ZZZ. They disbanded in 1984 only to reform in 1988 after the “Buzzsaw Popstar” single re-release. They changed to a harder psyche/ metal influenced sound and went on to support Iggy Pop at Easts Leagues Club during his Instinct tour. Of other Punk bands of Brisbane’s third generation were New Improved Testament, The Upsets, Public Execution, Black Assassins, Pictish Blood, Dumb Show, La Fats and Strange Glory. Popular venues from this particular time include Amyl’s Nitespace, Zits, The Australian National Hotel, The New Exchange Hotel, The Atcherley Hotel, Whispers, Griffith and Queensland Universities the Factory, Run corn Hall and the South Brisbane Blind Hall.

Dr.warhol 04:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)