Talk:Brigantine

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[edit] =Old talk

{{mergefrom|Brig}}

"Brig" and "brigantine" are not synonymous - for instance Chapelle's History of the American Sailing Navy, p. 392 makes reference to the Porpoise being built as a brigantine and later being re-rigged as a brig! The basic difference is in the use of fore-and-aft sail on the mainmast, but I'm still looking for a definitive authority to quote (good excuse for a short article also covering snows, bilanders, etc). Stan Shebs 04:55 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

To inspire you, I've started articles at snow, bilander, and just for fun, xebec. ;-> --the Epopt
The fact that Brig and Brigantine are not synonymous does not justify a separate page for Brig if there it is only a stub. Unless there is significant content that clearly delineates one type of ship by another, not just a slight modification of the masts and ship construction, then the articles belong together, not separately. Gohiking 19:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Well gee, now there's nothing left for me to do! (except to cut up the monster at rigging...) Stan Shebs 16:58 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

Oh, cheer up! I saved Advice Boat, Barge, Barca-longa, Caravel, Carrack, Cutter, Dredger, Fly-boat, Gunboat/Gunbrig, Gundalow, Hoy, Hulk/Sheer Hulk/Powder Hulk, Launch, Lazaretto, Lighter, Lighter, Longboat, Lugger, Lugger, Lump, Machine/Infernal machine, Packet, Pinnace, Pinque/Pink, Radeau, Receiving Ship, Smack, Tender, and Troopship for you. --the Epopt

Heh-heh. I must "turn my head and look away" or won't get any work done today... Stan Shebs 18:41 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

I must say that I'm happy to see people caring about such pedantic points. I've been getting disgusted by the quality of some of the seafaring articles I've seen. --the Epopt

The Oxford English Dictionary says brig and brigantine are different, from the definition of brig:

1. a. A vessel
(a) originally identical with the brigantine (of which word brig was a colloquial abbreviation); but, while the full name has remained with the unchanged brigantine, the shortened name has accompanied the modifications which have subsequently been made in rig, so that a brig is now
(b) A vessel with two masts square-rigged like a ship's fore- and main-masts, but carrying also on her main-mast a lower fore-and-aft sail with a gaff and boom.
A brig differs from a snow in having no try-sail mast, and in lowering her gaff to furl the sail. Merchant snows are often called brigs. This vessel was probably developed from the brigantine by the men-of-war brigs, so as to obtain greater sail-power.

Ortolan88 17:45 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

Good stuff, thanks! (Santa didn't bring me the OED I asked for, sniff) At some point the verbiage should be crunched down a bit. Picture would be good too - I have another project building 3D models of sailing ships, an illustrative screenshot or two would be a novel way to get unencumbered pics for the pedia! Stan Shebs 18:41 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

It seems that the terms brig and brigantine may have been synonyms at times, and not at others. The article doesn't really reflect this currently. Andrewa 10:01, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But it does now. I've also replaced the redirect at brigantine by a stub. Both I think now accurately represent the way the two terms have had several partly incompatible uses. Both articles could still use more work. Andrewa 02:42, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Rama's picture

Having a picture is good. But I sent the person who recently added one a question, because it looks like a schooner to me. Geo Swan 18:22, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] brig/brigantine/hermaphrodite brig

There has always been a huge amount of debate about where a two-masted schooner ends and a brig begins. After restoring, maintaining, and sailing aboard each of these types of vessels, many discussions with fellow tall-ship sailors of all persuasions, and researching as much as possible, I have determined that the progression is:

Two-Masted Schooner: Two masts, both masts setting a sail attached to the mast at the luff. All sails fore-and-aft. Sails may be gaff or marconi.

Stays'l Schooner: as above, but with no sail set with luff attached to foremast. One or more 'tween-mast stays'ls. Note: Modern Stays'l Schooners may sometimes set fore-and-aft tops'ls with luffs attached to the mast; this is outside the classical definitions.

Square-Tops'l Schooner: As Two-Masted Schooner, but with square topsail(s) on the foremast. A course may be set on the fore.

Main-Tops'l Schooner: As above, but with square tops'l(s) on main mast as well. No course is ever set on the main, but may (rarely) be set on the fore. The schooner Sultana is an example of this rare rig.

Brig(English): Two-masted. Square top'sl's and courses on both masts. No sparred fore-and-aft sail set on the foremast. Stays'ls set 'tween masts. Main course typically referred to as the "mains'l", while the sparred fore-and-aft sail set aft of the mainmast is typically called the "spanker" or "driver". The Stavros S Niarchos is an example, although rarely pictured with the maincourse set.

Brigantine(American)/Hermaphrodite Brigantine(English): As the Stays'l Schooner, with addition of square tops'ls and course on foremast. The Exy Johnson and Irving Johnson are the best examples that come to mind.

Brig(American)/Hermaphrodite Brig(English): As the Brig(English), but with no course set on the mainmast. The sparred fore-and-aft sail set aft of the mainmast is typically referred to as the "mains'l". The Lady Washington is a good example of this rig.

Snow: As the Brig(English), with the sparred fore-and-aft sail aft of the mainmast set at the luff not to the mainmast itself, but to a small "tys'l mast" stepped immediately aft of the mainmast.

The major stumbling block is the difference between New World and Old World definitions. Also, there is the somewhat archaic convention of using terms like "Brig" or "Sloop" to denote classes of vessels based on tonnage or usage, not just rig types. Also, and very rarely, one sees a picture of a Main-Tops'l Schooner setting a full stack on the main, or even worse, a Brig(British) setting a gaff fores'l (like the reproduction Pilgrim). In these strange cases, the distinction is made by carefully scrutinizing the overall sail and rig proportions; a schooner derives her primary drive from fore-and-aft sails (the squares being auxillary sails), whereas the brig derives her primary drive from her tops'ls (the fore-and-aft sails being secondary). Osteoderm 03:24, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Doug, I agree with you, which is why I have not made any change to article itself. If I had current first-hand access to the appropriate references, I would certianly provide them. Instead, my intention on this discussion page has been to clarify and attempt to steer others with greater access to materials towards providing a clearer article for the layperson. --Osteoderm 22:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] size of brigantine

[edit] the dimensions of a Brigantine ship

[edit] the dimensions of a Brigantine ship like the size

[edit] Disambiguaton page needed?

I've added a third use of "brigantine:" as an alternate spelling for brigandine, a piece of armor. Perhaps there should be a disambiguation page for this word. Durova 04:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Brig and need to maintain a separate listing for a stub

I am happy to see the difference between a Brig and Brigantine spelled out, although I wouldn't even know what was different was looking at the actual vessels unless it was pointed out to me by someone with more experience. The problem I have with maintaining Brig separately as a stub is that unless the article Brig is significant on it's own, it should be combined together with Brigantine and have the differences explained which is basically what is already being done now. Brig is an archaic reference to a similar type of ship and can refer back to Brigantine in order to clarify the differences between both.

The fact that Brig and Brigantine are not synonymous does not justify a separate page for Brig if it is only a stub. Unless there is significant content that clearly delineates one type of ship by another, not just a slight modification of the masts and ship construction, then the articles belong together, not separate.

In reviewing the other ship links, it would be likely that Hermaphrodite brig should also be combined here for the same reasons.

I thereby propose that Brig and Brigantine be combined. Gohiking 19:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense after all, since the definitions apparently vary through time and places. After a lifetime reading everything I happen to stumble on about sailingvessels, I can sum up that anyway in the Baltic it has mostly (not always) been defined that a brig has square sails on both masts, and a gaff sail in addition on the mizzen mast, whereas a brigantine has squares on the main mast, but only fore-aft sails on the mizzen, exactly as the pictures in both articles show today. Snow is an unknown type here, but seems to me to have more to do with size and possibly countryvise differings. With thorough explanation and redirections above proposal seems logical. Islander(Scandinavia) 01:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I think this would be ok as long as both terms are emboldened, and the difference between the two is clearly articulated at the beginning of this article. Care should be taken to ensure that a casual reader does not mistake the redirect for an indication that the two are synonymous. Gsnixon 12:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Modern parlance makes distinctions where, historically, there were none in regard to brig vs. brigantine. For much of the brig(antine)'s history as a working vessel, the terms brig and brigantine were fully interchangeable. Unless significant material can be added to contextualise these intimately related vessels, I agree that Brigantine, Brig, and Hermaphrodite brig should be merged.Chang E 04:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The terms 'brig' and 'brigantine' are still interchangable for the most part. People know what a 'brigantine' is, but a 'brig' could be a 'brig' or a 'brigantine'. The difference between brigs and brigantines is incredibly small, and the 'brig' article is - right now - completely focused on that difference, leaving little to discuss. I think that if someone found a different focus for the article, while still conveying the difference it would be worth preserving the article individually. But as it stands the article could be merged into 'brigantine' with a line similar to: "a brig is similar to the brigantine, however it is square rigged on both masts". Edit: In light of the de-stubbing of the brig article and large addition of material I don't think that the articles 'brig' and 'brigantine' should be merged. Digital Lyon 21:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] De-stub of Brig article

As I was working in the Wikipedia:Most wanted stubs page and Brig was listed as number 2, I managed to move the article from stub class to B Class as per the judgement of someone from the Military history WikiProject. I would argue that there is now sufficent material in the brig article to merit it not being merged.--Wowaconia 22:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This is internally inconsistent

The article says:

By the first half of the 18th century the word had evolved to refer not to a ship type name, but rather to a particular type of rigging: square rigged on the foremast and fore-and-aft rigged on the mizzen. Many sloops were "brigantine-rigged".

(italics added)

A sloop can't possibly have a different rigging on the foremast from the mizzen, it doesn't have either. I have therefore deleted the italicized text.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 04:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures?

It seems we have a picture of a Hermaphrodite Brig on the Brigantine Page, and a picture of a Brigantine on the Hermaphrodite Brig Page. Is there some reason for this? IgniFerroque (talk) 04:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)