Talk:Bride burning

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February 10, 2007 Peer review Reviewed
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[edit] Hindu Attitudes?

There are many stereotypes being perpetuated in this article - while the issue of bride burning is more or less unique to India, it is not as if it happens all the time there. Statistically speaking, it doesn't happen any more often than a mother murders her children in the United States. I am adding a comment regarding the reaction of the average Indian citizen to this practice in order to counteract what this article suggested. This is not a neutral article. 09 May 05 67.101.113.10

I agree. It is domestic violence and murder and is unrelated to Hinduism, except that it is usually triggered by dowry demands. Burning as a tool for violence and murder is unique to India, Pakistan and Bangladesh among Hindus, Muslims, and Christians probably because it is the easiest way of killing and hardest to prove seeing that it could be disguised as a kitchen accident. It is also the most common means of suicide among women in the Indian subcontinent.

Bride burning is a recent phenomenon (the past century or the past few decades) also and should be related more to the rise of western style consumerism than any religion. Also, this is in the category of 'Culture of India'. Will remove that.

The original content of this article was lifted from an article in CNN. It is not surprising though, seeing that western media has been consistently insensitive to/uncomprehending of the culture of India and Hinduism.

Stats - In 2000, 1,247 women were killed by an intimate partner in the US. Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend per year to three million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year in the US.2 [1] US has little more than a quarter of the population of India, where police receive 2,500 reports of bride burning every year.

Will rewrite article. --Pranathi 15:11, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't see how the link at the bottom is relevant. The article makes no claims about the relative violence level between India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and America. Kjkolb 11:54, August 20, 2005 (UTC)


Rewritten to remove all the copyvio content, most of which was lifted from an old CNN article. I've also tried to remove any judgements related to hinduism or its practice as a religion or belief. It would be nice if we could get some additional factual and statistical information on the subject. The references I was able to find are mostly news articles that cite widely varying "facts", and often come across as overly harsh or judgemental towards the underlying culture. Darcrist 04:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

This culture allows people to hold their wives hostage for their dowry, burn them to death, and then remarry more young women from the same family so they can do it all over again. These people consider marriage a form of hostage-taking and have not the slightest shred of common morality, and yet this is somehow related to the rise of western culture? Because America causes all the world's problems? Fuck you. I hope you racist sons of bitches go to hell.

And BTW, also fuck Wikipedia for crying about neutrality when you're writing about husbands setting their wives on fire. Twisted sacks of subhuman shit. Jboyler 01:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What the Hell is This

This is almost too bizarre. The_Irrelevant_One 18:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statistics

National Crime Bureau has not published any data mentioning the exact number of Bride Burning in India. So far as 7026 deaths classified as "reported" dowry deaths by National Crime Bureau, a large number of them are suicides. How? Because, According to another source in National Crime Bureau[2], the number of suicides by Indian women are about 43000 every year compared to 65000 by men. The number of murders of Indian women per year are 7952 compared to 27467 murders of men in year 2005. So, the overall fatalities of women by suicide and murder are 43,000 and 7952 respectively (with a ratio of about 8:1). When we apply the same ratio to "reported" (not convicted) dowry deaths of 7026, then about 6300 of them should be suicides and about 800 have to be murders. So, the maximum possible figure for Bride Burning (if any) in India is 800 deaths per year as Bride Buring is a kind of murder. How?? It is claimed in the beginning of the article that the husband or his relatives douse the woman with Kerosene and set her on fire. As murder can happen by various other means like murder by stabbing, hitting with objects or poisoning, it is highly unlikely that the actual bride burnings in India are even 100 as "Bride Burning" as defined in the beginning of article is too difficult for anyone to implement. When a person is set on fire in a small house, there is every possibility that the material and furniture in the house catches fire leading to a dangerous situation for even the murderers, as a person set on fire is inherently unstable rushing all around till death.Newageindian 11:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redirection from Dowry_death article

It is a important to note that the wikipedia article Dowry death gets redirected to Bride burning. Bride burning (if any) are a subset of the category of murders called Dowry deaths. So, someone has to create dowry death article and she should merge Bride burning to it.Newageindian 11:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is "bride burning" a Hoax

I have lived in India for 30 years. I have been to and stayed at about 35 odd places spread across 15 odd(out of 29)states of India. I(or more than 1000 people I have known thoroughly over 30 years) am yet to see a case of bride burning. On the contrary I see some feminists on net talking about it with much more frequency than perhaps these incidences actually occur spread over 1.1 billion of Indian population. Another practice of "Sati" has reported mere single digit cases( I think 5 to be precise) in last 20 years in India. In light of this, would it be relevant to have a topic devoted to this scarce phenomenon of "bride burning" which has a potential to mislead any reader about the actual state of affairs in modern India.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hparmar (talk • contribs) 11:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

No, I saw horrible cases in Bangladesh, first hand. My mother has pictures. More importantly it was something people tried to hide and no one talked about. There is no such thing as modern India. They still operate on a caste system. And CLEARLY this ritual is reflected in the laws, and well documented by noted periodicals (TIME MAGAZINE)!67.169.101.187 20:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Yet, sati is an example of ritual suicide, and as such is not murder, nor related to dowry crime in any way. Think back to stories you've heard, though, especially if you spent any time in villages. While I agree that (at least in Orissa and West Bengal) I've never heard of, or met anyone who knew anything about, cases of dowry murders nearby us, you may recall gossip of the husband's family not treating the bride very well because of insufficient dowry. I've heard of mistreatments & miserable girls many times (though no violence to speak of). So, we see that this is problem is a very extreme and violent extension of the dowry custom (which in my opinion needs to GO). Also important to note is that while many cases of dowry murder possibly go unreported, or at least not reported as a murder (accident or somesuch) certainly the deaths themselves would be recorded. Even comparing numbers of suicide reports could give a useful upper bound. Further, horrible cases in Bangladesh to not correspond to the non-existence of modern India!! Certainly if you'll spend some months in a small Orissa village (mostly peaceful, good, simple, families) and see what is *not* modern, and then some months in Bangalore or Mumbai, you will come to know the difference. Your comment is obviously heated and motivated by personal bias. If it was hidden and no one talked about it, did your family report the murder and show the pictures to the police? Of course the killers will try to hide the crime. This, also has no significance to the over all statistics. I agree that they are likely under-represented numbers, but only better investigation and data gathering can solve that. 65.112.197.16 18:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Independent Dowry death article

I will remove the redirection from Dowry death article in 2 days time and write dowry death article in detail. Please let me know your views about this.Newageindian 15:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed the redirection of Dowry death article to [Bride burning]] and created independent article on Dowry death. Please contribute to that article.Newageindian 12:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV on the criticism section & sources for rest of article

Just had a look at the criticism section. The first paragraph needs a bit of editting for NPOV. However the 3 short paragraphs, in the middle are in essay style WP:SYNT and are argumentative. Becuase of this I've deleting them, if anyone can rewrite them and source them with verfiable info please do. The final 2 paragraphs of the criticism section needed to be adjusted for NPOV (I added {{citation needed}} just to show where refernces should be added when found). On a more general note, the whole article is in very poor shape. Both sides of it need references - may I recommend JSTOR as a source of reliable research articles (i found 5 substantial and balanced pieces there with only a quick search) unfortunately it's not a free service but anyone with access should use it or any other verifiable information to improve this page--Cailil 19:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Just another quick note I've put a {{Template:Controversial}} tag above so that editors will read this talk page thoroughly before making unilateral editing decisions. Also added the WP:GS tag since this a tag about gender violence--Cailil 20:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I have added the citation on the dowry death and bride burning hoax as well as newspaper reported article on how a man was wifully charged 219.64.74.2 18:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)bharati

Thank you 219.64.74.2 for your contribution, your citation is a good addition to this article. You have also added In this tune it is also important to look at the findings from the karnataka high court wherein it was cited that at the minumum 44% of the prosecution were throughly unprosecutable. [...] There are serious social and economic repurcussions." Furthur the story linked gives us how bride burning and dowry death are made up These 3 paragraphs are in violation of WP:SYNT - using fact to make a point. On Wikipedia articles must be verifiable and content must be objective. To a passerby this addition looks more like an argument than an encylopedia entry. Please discuss here.--Cailil 18:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Pursuant to my point above I've removed the following section. I am making no judgement on the truth of these claims, however this is WP:SYNT. The criticisms in these paragraphs are already expressed in the existing piece. Please beware of recentism
In this tune it is also important to look at the findings from the karnataka high court wherein it was cited that at the minumum 44% of the prosecution were throughly unprosecutable. This was reported in 2000(1) Karnataka Law Online starting on Page no 560 is illustrative of the severity of the abuse of the process of law happening in the dowry harassment and section 498a cases
IN the high Court of Karnataka M.F.Saldhana & M.S. rajendra Prasad JJ Crl.A. no. 589 of 2003 Decided on 4-9-2003 important excerpts starting from page 562
"we need to sound a note of caution that the police and investigating authorities should not improperly and technically jump to the conclusion that merely because death has occurred that ipso facto a criminal offense has been committed . In as many as 44% of these cases prosecution is thoroughly unjustified . Unless there is cogent and convincing evidence and unless there is material to sustain these charges , it would be totally impermissible and completely unjustified to embark upon legal action . The consequences of these charges are extremely grave because the accussed husband and invariably family members are placed under arrest . There are serious social and economic repurcussions."
I also removed the last line from the section as it is POV:Furthur the story linked gives us how bride burning and dowry death are made up Please discuss here before reposting.--Cailil 16:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another POV statement

The paragraph added by 80.192.138.251 in this diff is another POv piece and has been deleted.--Cailil 18:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

PS: I've added about 5 {{Fact}} tags to this article because it is completely unreferenced. This situtaion needs to be addressed urgently.--Cailil 18:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] objection on referring the Save Family Foundation`s claims

i totally object to referring to Save Family Foundation`s claims on the number of dowry deaths and/or bride burning. their claims are unsubstantiated and at best rash estimation. if they have arrived at the number by a research or through authorities, which i doubt,why there no citation for that?

also, there has to be a mention of how hinduism treats its women, about the way women are told to be inferior, treatment of widows and women who don`t have sons or are childless. female baby killing, selective abortion, deep seated discrimination against women in family and also how the corrupt tradition of dowry affects women`s self-esteem. all these factors contribute to bride burning and have to be addressed.

Ghimirebhumika 20:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC) Ghimirebhumika

I have to agree with you Ghimirebhumika, there is no notable or reliable claim from Save Indian Family about bride burning - there's a lot of opinion and argument but no evidence. If you have or know of a WP:RS source for how dowry is effecting (affecting) women please add it.--Cailil 15:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time Magazine reference

I'm not able to find a reference for Time magazine saying: "dowry deaths in India increased from around 400 a year in the early 1980s to around 5,800 a year by the middle of the 1990s" I was able to source this: "as many as 25,000 brides are brutally killed each year because of disputes over dowries" to Time Magazine, Feb 27th 2001 in 'Indian Society Needs To Change' by Maseeh Rahman [3]. I've changed the section to reflect what I can source. If anybody can source the previous statement please re-add it.--Cailil talk 21:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I've made a number of changes here. All but one piece is now sourced. Every link I found violating WP:EL was removed. Everything violating WP:NPOV and WP:NOR was removed. Everything I could source was sourced. I've removed the POV and UNVERIFIED tags. I'm going to send this page for peer review as soon as I can. If anyone wants to add to this article please only use reliable sources and verified information.--Cailil talk 13:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I have a question here. How does wikipedia handle Media bias? Facts and statistics in media sources may not always be correct. One can find gross inconsistencies often as it is seen in this article. For example, a reader gets a picture of 2500 deaths to 25000 deaths due to Bride Burning. What is the policy of wikipedia regarding this? Newageindian 13:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The time magazine has published interview of a person, who claimed that 25,000 brides are brutally killed each year in India. It is his POV and it is not possible to trace this fact to any other source. Can a person's views in an interview by Time Magazine be considered as neutral? This particular statement violates WP:NPOV even though it got published in Time Magazine. So, this statement has to be removed. Newageindian 11:54, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually Newageindian you are misrepresenting WP:NPOV. In this case I'm not sure whether that interview should have been given the prominence that it had (being in the lead paragraph) but it should probably be in the article somewhere - Time magazine is highly notable. NPOV states that all significant published points of view should be included in articles - not that sources should be neutral. The media bias you assert is your opinion unless there are third party, reliable, non-trivial sources that state the Time article was biased. Even then it may still be notable enough for inclusion somewhere since it was published by Time. If you have a further query bring it to WP:RS/N--Cailil talk 00:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
After a lot of digging I finally found the first reference, saying "dowry deaths in India increased from around 400 a year in the early 1980s to around 5,800 a year by the middle of the 1990s." I've re-added this piece as it contextualizes the CNN report--Cailil talk 16:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Independent Article on Dowry Death

Bride burning is a subset of dowry deaths. Dowry deaths can happen due to suicides (by hanging, by fire etc) or murders(poisoning, stabbing, hitting etc). This article is extremely confusing and is still in disputed state, when we equates with dowry deaths with bride burning. Someone had redirected Dowry death article to Bride burning adding to all confusion.

I removed the redirection of Dowry death article to [Bride burning]] and created an independent article on Dowry death. Please contribute to that article. We can keep the Bride burning article as it is. Newageindian 12:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

This article is definitely a subset of the dowry death article since there is no other reason for bride burning except dowry. In essence both these articles need to be a single section of the article on Dowry-Andy anno (talk) 06:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Groom burning

I've tagged the Groom burning section with {{cn}}. This section is based on a very short news item mentioned at 2 internet news outlets. This isn't good enough for encyclopedic writing. This is a serious issue, but the mention is trivial - not every court case deserves an entry at wikipedia. Unless a serious secondary source can be provided for this section it'll have to go (see WP:RS). When one is published then it could be re-inserted--Cailil talk 14:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the section. I did a little digging, and using one on-going case of immolation and the Kiranjit Ahluwalia case to argue that "Groom burning" exists is original research it was also given undue weight. There are a number of books examining bride burning (i.e Bride Burning: Crime Against Women by A. S. Garg; Bride Burning in India: A Socio Legal Study by Mohammed Umar; South Asians and the Dowry Problem by Werner Menski; Behind Closed Doors: Domestic Violence in India by Rinki Bhattacharya); there have been at least 5 international conferences (the Fifth International Conference on Dowry, Bride-Burning and Son-Preference in India was in 2001) as well as numerous journal articles.
There are none about "groom burning." So far there are two separate incidents, one still under investigation, being linked together (ergo a synethsis) to advanced this idea or to make a point. As stated above this is original research by synthesis and has been removed as such--Cailil talk 18:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 17:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)