Talk:Brian Wilson

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[edit] Psychotropic Drugs

I was disturbed to see 'Landy had given Wilson high doses of psychotropic drugs, which over time cause significant neurological damage' written into the article without a source or mention of WHAT psychotropic drugs, as many psychotropics display absolutely no lasting physical effects.

Maybe it would be appropriate to say instead that the drugs *did* cause neurological damage (provided a source exists...though it seems fairly plain if you compare his speech and mannerisms before and after the treatment...one could be forgiven for thinking he'd had a stroke), which makes the statement more about the actual drugs he was given as opposed to a broad statement about psychotropics in general. Domino42 13:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


I was also quite bothered by it. Does anyone know WHAT drugs allegedly did the damage? -georgiabiker

[edit] Murry Wilson

I'm surprised there's no mention of Murry Wilson in this article Tarcieri 09:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I added some background on Brian Wilson's deafness, based on what Brian Wilson said in this interview: [1] However, substantially more should be added, particularly regarding Brian taking control of production, the Help Me Rhonda tape, and him as a potential influence in Brian Wilson's mental breakdown, which seems to be terribly underdocumented. Tarcieri 10:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] copyright violation

copyright violation? (See bottom of article)

[edit] Charles Manson

His relationship to Charles Manson should be mentioned. Redwolf24 18:42, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

  • That would be Dennis Wilson, not Brian. --165.254.107.2 17:18, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Actually, BW worked with CW on producing a Charles Manson album without Dennis Wilson present.

there's no proof to that

Actually, there is: [2] - scroll down until you get to untitled Charles Manson album, and read all about it. MookieZ 03:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Things Are Changing For The Better"

Re: my most recent edit. Wilson's song produced by Phil Spector *was* for The Blossoms. The song in question, Things Are Changing For The Better, was a rewrite of the earlier song Don't Hurt My Little Sister. Spector produced the backing track, and lyricist Jerry Riopelle produced the Blossoms' vocal for Philles, Spector's record label. Both Jay And The Americans and The Supremes did also record versions shortly thereafter for the same equal opportunity campaign, using the same backing track, but The Blossoms' version was the first, and the only one with the active involvement of any of the songwriters or Philles records. Stealth Munchkin 09:36, 6 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Reply: OK, so how about mentioning their versions in the article, as an afterthought? 70.189.195.127 04:31, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Beautiful": POV?

Most pages about pop artists have their articles organized by phase of their life to enhance readability. Can we do this? Also near the end of the article there is a reference to a "beautiful" song that was released for Katrina releif -- seems that "beautiful" violates neutrality as it is a subjective opinion - was it criticly acclaimed? was it popular? Did anybody endorse it? If we have those, then we can mention that instead of calling it beautiful. Thomasdelbert 14:25, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Wow, that's pretty technical, but ok. Is the song you're discussing Walking Down the Path of Life?

[edit] Censorship

There's a part about his autobiography that reads "Understandably, it was taken out of print." Isn't there a better way to word that that doesn't sound so pro-censorship?

This article is about Brian Wilson, why would anyone take that it's pro-censorship? Anyways, it really is understandable, have you read it?

[edit] Image removal

Question: Why does a Bot come along and remove perfectly acceptable images? Hardylane 02:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spector collaborations

Question: It the opening paragraphs it states that Brian only collide with Spector on that one song. What about the song/s "then I kissed her"/"then he kissed me?" The later being done by the Crystals? Both being written in part by Spector. electronic.mayhem 05:45, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Brian's version wasn't a collaboration, it was merely a cover. Mattbrundage 15:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Headings

I've added headings to the article to make it more readable -- feel free to come up with better ones if you want. Mattbrundage 15:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Intro

Brian was NOT the lead singer on most songs. In fact, Mike Love usually filled that role. However, on songs that were strictly Brian's compositions, he generally sang lead, unless otherwise noted.

[edit] Bipolar disorder

I am not sure this is the correct diagnosis. Even in the Larry King interview both Brian and his wife talk about it being schizoaffective disorder which is a psychotic disorder that has a lot in common with schizophrenia. It would be nice to see the article reflect this, since it is qualatatively a different mental illness than jsut bipolar disorder.

--Hobbesq 17:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC) Thomas

[edit] South Park reference

In the South Park movie, there was a line about the Canadian government "apologizing" for Brian Wilson. Since Wilson is not Canadian, this does not make much sense. Does anyone know what they were talking about? Or was it just a random stupid joke? (South Park is known for that, but usually there's at least some relevance to their jokes.) --Lurlock 20:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Oops, my bad. It was Bryan Adams they were talking about. Never mind. --Lurlock 13:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Looking For A Picture

I know this isn't the best place to be asking for something like this, but I am desperate. I am looking for a picture of Brian Wilson with him sitting in front of a piano like he is playing it but he is facing the camera (off to the side). I am doing a presentation on him and this picture is perfect for a visual aid. I have a small version of the picture in the Pet Sounds 40th Anniversary CD set, but it is much too small to use. The picture is on the back of the inserted booklet (in the upper left hand corner). If anyone knows where I can find a copy of this picture online and could let me know, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks - Blake Edwards (b_edwards1015@yahoo.com)

Blake try your luck on asking someone on the official Brian Wilson message board at [3] --220.236.172.60 16:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Blake, check your email ;-) -- Mattbrundage 02:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent events

Is it really necessary to detail so many of the shows Brian has played in the last two months? Should that be part of an encylopedic article? piper108 17:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC) Is it irrelevent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.2.9.145 (talk) 20:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Anybody have any citation for this claim: "he is now acknowledged as one of the most significant and innovative musicians and composers of 20th century popular music." 207.34.120.71 16:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I think it's pretty clear that he is. Just look at all the musicians that admire and respect him for what he has done. Sir Paul McCartney, Elton John, Eric Clapton, Elvis Costello, Leonard Bernstein, Burt Bacharach, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Pete Townsend, Tom Petty, John Cale, Ginger Baker, Jack Bruce, David Crosby, Graham Nash, Linda Ronstadt, Jimmy Webb, Lindsey Buckingham, Sir George Martin and the list goes on. If you can't understand why he's "one of the most significant and innovative musicians and composers of 20th century popular music" then you should try and read more about him. He not only wrote and sung on most of The Beach Boys songs, but he arranged and produced the songs too. And not only was he producing and writing Beach Boys songs, he was also writing many songs for outside artists too, like Jan And Dean, Ron Wilson, The Honeys, American Spring, Glenn Campbell etc... Add to the fact that he wrote, arranged, produced and sung on many of the Beach Boys hit songs including "Good Vibrations", "Wouldn't It Be Nice", "I Get Around", "Help Me, Rhonda", "Do It Again", "Surfin Safari", "Surfin USA", "Surfer Girl", "California Girls", "God Only Knows", "Sloop John B", "Little Deuce Coupe", "Fun Fun Fun", "Dance Dance Dance", "Dont Worry Baby", "When I Grow Up To Be A Man", "Wendy" etc.. etc.. Surely you can see that he's one of the most important composers/musicians of 20th century popular music. I mean after all, in popular music is there many bigger bands than The Beach Boys? Quite frankly, no (You could argue one or two - ie: The Beatles - but thats about it) And Brian did do the majority of The Beach Boys work when they were at their most popular and also, try and name one other person whos been just as or more successful than Brian Wilson in popular music and they do all the writing, arranging, producing, singing and playing on many songs including over 30 top 20 singles. And he has been involved on over 25 Beach Boys albums, and now hes released over 10 of his own solo albums. So frankly I dont believe that that claim needs a citation. --220.236.172.60 16:08, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
You are kidding, right? The above is exactlt what wp:or is all about. Just stick to providing sources, especially for claims as grandeous as this. Cheers, --Tom 03:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Do we need a citation to state "the sun rises in the East and sets in the West?" Many things are established as fact because it is basic knowledge. Demanding a citation that Brian Wilson "is now acknowledged as one of the most significant and innovative musicians and composers of 20th century popular music" is like demanding a citation for where the Sun rises and sets. The citations are there, nonetheless. I believe that Rolling Stone selected him as the most influential composer of the 20th Century. Common sense must rule in the end. -- Elaich 05:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Please, enough with the drama. Equating Wilson's musical stature to the Sun rising?? Just provide sources that say he is XZY and then include it. To evaluate his carrer and then to say that he is xzy is original research and POV. Our job is not to use common sense but to act like hyraxes and report already established, reliably sourced, material. Thanks, --Tom 14:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I think thats one problem with Wikipedia among many. Because there might not be a citation that states "Brian is one of the most important composers of the 20th century", but he clearly is. I mean what if somebody famous wanted to edit their page and put in their facts like their date of birth for example, and yet Wikipedia says "citation please", what are they supposed to do, upload a copy of their birth certificate? I might be being overdramatic but I believe I do have a point. I mean I can understand having a citation for a statement that said, for example, "Brian Wilson once stated that 'I wanted to make music from a very early age'". Yes, that definately needs a citation or even just stating something like "Brian Wilson is admired by people such as Rivers Cuomo, Elvis Costello and Paul McCartney". Yes that would need a citation, but for something so obvious to demand a citation is stupid. You might as well have a citation after every fact. I'll give you an example for this page:

"In 1965, Wilson felt he could not play live with the band as well as write new material (citation needed); so Glen Campbell, a regular session musician, replaced Wilson for three months of tours before quitting to pursue a solo career(citation needed). Bruce Johnston then joined the band (citation needed). Wilson steered the group to huge success around the world(citation needed) and they scored a string of international hits between 1962 and 1967, including pop classics such as "Surfin' USA," "Fun, Fun, Fun"," "I Get Around," "Help Me Rhonda," "California Girls," "Wouldn't It Be Nice," "Good Vibrations," and "Heroes and Villains." He also produced records for other artists, including Glen Campbell and the Honeys(citation needed), but with nowhere near the success he had with the Beach Boys. He also co-wrote many of the biggest hits for Jan and Dean during this period."(citation needed)Sahafan 15:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

And the Beatles had George Martin as producer, Brian Wilson was just him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.153.197.233 (talk) 01:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

Re: "Because there might not be a citation that states 'Brian is one of the most important composers of the 20th century', but he clearly is.":

How is he clearly this? If you have no citation, just state whatever facts lead you to this conclusion and leave off the conclusion. "One of the most" is pretty vague, of course. Is he the tenth most important? The one-hundreth most important? The one-millionth most important? I think you'd be hard pressed to make a case that his significance extends much beyond his time (the early to mid sixties) and milieu (rock and roll). It seems to me absurd to suggest he can hold a candle to, say, Richard Rodgers, George Gershwin, Burt Bacharach, or Stephen Sondheim, to say nothing of Bela Bartok, Dimitri Shostakovich, Igor Stravinsky, and so on.TheScotch 09:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It may seem absurd to you, but not to the redoubtable Elvis Costello, who said, "Brian Wilson follows a line of great pop composers from George Gershwin to Cole Porter to Burt Bachrach to him [Wilson]." This may not be the exact quote, but you can hear/watch Costello's remarks on the DVD packaged with the SMiLE album. Seduisant 15:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Costello is entitled to his opinion, and if he did say that, you can put that he said it in the article, but you do need the "exact quote". Can we assume then that sahafan meant to imply the qualification "pop"? I hope so. "Absurd" is too strong a word--sorry about that--, but I think we can reasonably say that Wilson was operating in a more limited sphere than the very best of the twentieth-century's Broadway composers. (I'm excluding Irving Berlin because Berlin apparently required the services of uncredited co-composers.)
The Bacharach comparison interests me more. I was just listening to Pet Sounds the other day. Its liner notes repeatedly invoked the Beatles, but I didn't hear much that reminded me of the Beatles. To a large extent the record simply sounded like the Beach Boys, which is not too surprising, but the best bits reminded me of Burt Bacharach, that is to say, to the extent Wilson was able to transcend the Beach Boys on this recording he was moving into Bacharach territory. Bacharach, however, is always in Bacharach territory, and he goes further than Wilson--farther, deeper, with more authority and more control, and, especially, with more compositional technique.
Costello, by the way, seems to have a thing for the sixties. All of his musical opinions--all those I've encountered, that is--are biased--tainted I'd say--in this regard.TheScotch 05:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm having second thoughts about my first sentence ("...if he did say that, you can put that he said it in the article"). If "Costello's remarks [are] on the DVD packaged with the SMiLE album," then quoting them here is equivalent to quoting book-jacket blurbs here. No matter how sincere Costello might have been, "packaged" in this way his "remarks" are functionally advertisement. TheScotch 09:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

That's not quite it. The quote (I believe) is from Beautiful Dreamer, a legitimate documentary by David Leaf (who is, admittedly, a friend of Brian's) which first aired on Showtime. Later on, it was packaged together with a DVD of a live version of Smile, not with the Smile album itself. MookieZ 04:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I don't understand

I can't understand this NPOV. I mean how can you prove something such as Brian Wilson is "acknowledged as one of the most significant and innovative musicians and composers of 20th century popular music." Or even put Burt Bacharach, Paul McCartney or whoever you want to. I mean if you find a music book (NOT based exclusively on Brian or The Beach Boys) that backs that quote up, then isn't it still the point of view of the author? I mean it doesn't mean its right. Just as if a book says the exact same thing about Beethoven. It doesn't mean just because its written in a book that its right, I mean I could write a book and say "Dave Grohl is the greatest musician of all time" but it doesn't mean that he is. My point is that everything is based on opinion. And to be honest I value people such as Paul McCartney ("He's one of your [meaning America's] great geniuses" (stated at his induction of Brian into the songwriting hall of fame - can be found on "Brian Wilson On Tour" DVD) and countless other opinions from people, than some crap music book stating the same thing. I guess the only real thing you can look at is a) the impact the person had on other people at the top in that field because THEY would (or atleast should) have more of an idea of if Brian is innovative etc.. than most people and b) Record sales, #1 hits etc.. but then again there is plenty of instances in various artforms where the person is not acknowledged to be important until much later after they have created a work. And anbody who wants to argue with me, please show me a citation that is NOT biased (ie: impossible) that Beethoven is one of the most significant composers of all time. In conclusion, there is no such thing (when it comes to saying "this person is one of the best or one of the most important at their field") as a neutral point of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.236.192.51 (talk) 09:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: "I mean if you find a music book (NOT based exclusively on Brian or The Beach Boys) that backs that quote up, then isn't it still the point of view of the author?":
The assertion that Wilson is wonderful is then merely the point of view of the author, but the assertion that the author holds that view (or claims to) is fact. If the author is notable, then that he holds that view may be notable too, although in my opinion in most cases it probably isn't all that notable, and I think this sort of quoting should be used sparingly, if at all, in wikipedia articles. It's still lots better than some anonymous wikipedia editor's gratuitous unattributed opinion.
Re: "...I mean I could write a book and say 'Dave Grohl is the greatest musician of all time' but it doesn't mean that he is.":
You could, but whether you could get that book published (other than in the vanity press) is another matter.
Because persons such as McCartney seem to have, for no clear reason, legions of fetishists making highly inflated claims for them, we have to be especially wary about them here. There's plenty of opinion involved when you compare, say, Mozart to Beethoven, but there really isn't when you compare McCartney as a composer--in contradistinction to celebrity--to Beethoven. Beethoven, for example, could actually read and write music, orchestrate, play an instrument at a virtuoso level, and compose contrapuntally. That much doesn't distinguish him from lots and lots of lesser composers, but it certainly distinguishes him from McCartney.TheScotch 11:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not really that clued up about music (ie: I haven't studied it or anything) but Wilson can compose contrapuntally... He can play lots of instruments (eg: piano, harmonica, bass guitar, drums etc.. He could orchestrate.. And he can compose music too (just as McCartney can - but this is about Wilson not McCartney of course)... And let me ask you this, do you believe that the more complex a composition the greater it is? I certainly don't. Music is all about the feeling it gives to listeners and a good musician tries to find a way (perhaps unknowingly) to move the listener. Technicality doesn't mean anything when it comes to art. In Maths yes. In music no. Technically somebody might be able to compose more complex songs but that doesn't mean that they are better.
But all of the above is irrelevant, because it is about the significance of Wilson and judging someone on technical details has nothing to do with whether or not they are significant. Now can you explain to me (and I really mean this, because I don't understand), how does one judge somebody's significance? Cause I certainly haven't a BLOODY clue because of course you have to refernce it but it seems that every reference for something like this seems to be irrelevant. What sort of CREDIBLE reference would you use to judge somebody's significance?
And with the point about his innovation, again how do you cite a reference for that? My point is you CAN'T seem to reference something like this, because everything is opinion isn't it and what one deems as "innovative"?

[edit] We need a new headline image

The image depicting Wilson w/ his fingers in his mouth is just silly. It does not give an accurate representation of who Brian Wilson was. All I get from the picture is that Brian Wilson may be senile now. An image from his prime years (1963-1967) would be most fitting, and I think all would agree. Granted, it probably would be tough to find a free image from that era... However, I am advocating removal of this image. No image would be better than this. - tbone (talk) 23:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Brian is a nice good-looking man, but in this pic he is looking silly. I wish the pic from All Music Guide was free... And where are all those fans with cameras... --Betty kerner (talk) 00:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

In the first paragraph a citation notification has been added for Brian being deaf in his right ear. This is a very well known and oft-repeated piece of Beach Boys trivia that can be easily verified in anything from the 'Catch A Wave' book, Brian's 'Wouldn't It Be Nice' autiobiography, numerous interviews, the 'Endless Summer' documentary and virtually any of the innumerable in-depth profiles published on Brian over the years. --TomFriend08 (talk) 01:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)