Talk:Brian Johnston

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Further to the following, the correct quote is 'the batsman's Holding, the bowler's Willey' which I heard at the time & will continue to correct if necessary! - Rothorpe 07:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

So is the definitive quote (as the article now says):

"The bowler's Holding; the batsman's Willey" (Michael Holding of the West Indies bowling to Peter Willey of England in the Test match at the Oval in 1976)."

or (as the article used to say):

"The batsman's Holding; the bowler's Willey" (Peter Willey of England bolwing to Michael Holding of the West Indies bowling in the Test match at the Oval in 1976)."

Answers on a postcard... -- ALoan (Talk) 01:21, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

According to a sample on the goofs page of The official Brian Johnston website, it's "the bowler's Holding....."

Not so - see below Rothorpe 00:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

Johnners deserves a better write up than this ! It's good so far as it goes, but there is more. --jrleighton 11:42, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

For a man that is one of the greats in BBC and Cricket history, one of the most likable British men of the 20th century, this article must be expanded ! anon

I was listening at the time of the incident & have rewritten accordingly. I shall, however, be looking to see what CMJ has to say - Rothorpe 00:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This is probably the truth of the matter...

From Barry Johnston's life of his Dad:

"When I was compiling the Johnners at the Beeb cassette for the BBC I spent hours digging through the radio and television archives and I found recordings of most of his famous slip-ups. There was one noticeable exception. In 1976 England played the West Indies at the Oval. At one point England's Peter Willey was facing the fearsome West Indian fast bowler Michael Holding. What happened next has gone down in cricketing history: 'We welcome World Service listeners to the Oval,' said Brian cheerfully, 'where the bowler's Holding, the batsman's Willey.' Or did he? I think Brian made it up. It was too good a pun to resist but I do not believe that even he could have said it without laughing. The BBC engineers would also have kept a recording of such an outrageous gaffe. More revealingly, Brian never actually said that he had spoken the words on air. He was an honest man and he would not have wanted to tell an outright lie." PaddyBriggs 09:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] From Talk:Test Match Special

This issue was discussed a little while ago:

“ Is there any evidence that "The bowler's Holding the batsman's Willey" ever happened? It's a well known story and it certainly could have happened, but did it? If so, who said it on air, on what date? Failing that, when was the first time it appeared in print? E.g. who was the first commentator to put it in one of their memoirs?

I think this is one of the stories about TMS that may well not be true. In any case I think the evidence should be cited here. My strong suspicion is that somebody made it up wishing they had said it, probably Johnners. The story seems to have got stronger since the "LegOver" incident, since that showed that the most outrageous things could happen on TMS. But it's notable that the exact date (and time) of that is easily located, while this one is mysterious.

Note that the same story is told on the Holding and the Willey pages. Again without evidence. I guess I will put a similar notice there.

I'd be tempted to put at least "citation needed", or even say that it's a well known story which has not been tracked down.


A 2003 article has Blowers saying it was in 1976 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/test_match_special/2664751.stm. That is not really contemporary.

--85.210.32.94 21:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

It could only have been in 1976 or 1980, since those were the only England v West Indies series in England where both cricketers were playing. I too am suspicious about the story's authenticity. JH 21:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I've now found the following in CMJ's Ball by Ball, on page 160. Discussing readers' letters, he says: Brian Johnston was taken to task by a schoolmistress, feigning indignation, for saying... during a West Indies Test commentary: "The bowler's Holding, the batsman's Willey." This, in fact, was one of the few faux pas which Brian has not committed. JH 09:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks JH, that was rapid and brilliant. --85.210.32.94 10:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I was lucky enough to have the right book to hand, and that "humour" was an entry in its index. Which brings me to the new Johnners stories that have been added in the last day or so. Other Johhners' classics include, "there's Tony Grieg standing at second slip -- legs wide apart, bending over, waiting for a tickle;" I've read that Johnners said that about Neil Harvey, back in the days when he was in the TV commentary box. It's not impossible that he decided to reuse the remark, of course. JH 21:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it's more likely that the story was added from memory and the player (whose identity isn't really integral) was guessed at - that's what I tend to do when telling stories like this. If you can remember where you read it then I'd change it and add a source. --Cherry blossom tree 23:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 ”

I stand by my version, 'the batsman's Holding, the bowler's Willey'. It is how I and my friends remembered it subsequently. It was a purely accidental occurrence: Brian Johnston must have said variants of ‘the batsman’s Smith, the bowler’s Jones’ dozens of times. And it occurred naturally as part of the commentary, not after ‘we welcome listeners’. It was very funny and I treasure the memory, and it is a pity someone along the line has decided to rewrite history. Possibly, just possibly, Brian Johnston recommitted the gaffe on purpose, and the second time Holding was bowling to Willey and not the other way round (which would have occurred more often). Here in Portugal I do not have easy access to cricketing literature, but I did cite www.thecustard.tv/thecrumble/thecrumble_36.html, which gives the correct version of events: ‘the radio lot famously dissolved into a five-minute bout of hysterics one day when one of them announced that "the batsman's Holding, the bowler's Willey"’. The ‘five minutes’ is an exaggeration, half a minute more like, but the stunned silence followed by the sound of three grown men (Johnston, Bill Frindall the scorer and whoever the ‘expert’ commenter was) helplessly giggling are not easily forgotten. There must be a source somewhere that tells it like it was. - Rothorpe 14:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that Johnners son Barry would have found the source if there had been one - his biog was very thorough. It should be respected as the best and most reliable account there is. PaddyBriggs 16:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course it is not surprising that the quotation has been turned round, as Holding was a great fast bowler. If anyone else remembers that day in 1976 (I was 26), please let me know. It's a good example of the more likely version being mistaken for the real, even as here by the man's son - Rothorpe 17:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem here is that, in terms of Wikipedia, what you remember counts for nothing. Per Wikipedia:Attribution, The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true. In this case, We have Blowers, CMJ, Johnners and his son all saying the same thing: The bowler's Holding, the batsman's Willey. Hence this must be the version of the quote to be included in the article. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 18:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course you're right. Caveat lector! - Rothorpe 23:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The substantive point is that there is no Wikifiable evidence that Johnners ever said it live on air at a match at all! Barry's biog points out that BJ was always honest - you always knew when he was gently fabricating because of the twinkle in his eye. Peter Baxter would probably have found the recording if it existed. Whether it's Holding/Willey or Willey/Holding is incidental. The joke (for that seems to be what it was) works either way. Has anyone got a tape of Johnners telling the joke on one of his theatre tours? That would at least tell us how he intended it to be told! PaddyBriggs 08:35, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It's available on his website, [1] (go the Gaffes and Giggles section, it's the fourth one down). In this he even admits to not knowing whether he actually said it on air or not. The quote needs mentioning as it is widely attributed to him, but it needs to be explained that he probably didn't say it, per the sources. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 11:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! Lovely to hear Johnners tell the story. Bowler=Holding, Batsman=Willey in this version. I think that it is apocryphal and that we now have it about right on the Johnners Wiki page. PaddyBriggs 17:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: The custard.tv reference cited above - doesn't seem particularly reliable, and I wonder this is another case of mis-matched anecdotes, when the 'five-minute hysterics' is possibly for the leg-over clip (that is well documented and the audio evidence exists!). Also as the bowler only needed to bowl one ball to the batsman for this quote to have been made, the argument that Willey bowled to Holding more often doesn't seem to matter - the only person who could check that is probably Bearders who has a complete record of balls faced/bowled to each player from his linear-scoring system. I also suggest that User:Rothorpe listens to the leg-over clip - the hysterics are exactly as he describes earlier in this thread!

A 31 year memory may seem reliable, but it is not verifiable, and unfortunately cannot be used as a reference. The thoughts to Johnners Jr, Blowers, CMJ and the like should really be given more credit than custard.tv.

Just some thoughts. MDCollins (talk) 15:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't listen to anything on my computer but I have already written to Bill Frindall: bill@beardedwonder.co.uk - Rothorpe 23:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

He never replied: if he had, he would have been disagreeing with someone, as a quick google shows that both variants are 'remembered', & perhaps he preferred not to. Rothorpe 00:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

In Barry Johnston's definitive life of his father "Johnners: The Life of Brian" Page 235 the quote is "... the bowler's Holding, the batsman's Willey." PaddyBriggs 04:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

And Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. Rothorpe 14:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)