Talk:Brian Horrocks

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[edit] Start

I just started this article today and I'm aware it's a bit "bare bones", particularly on his role in Second Alamein and Market Garden. However I don't feel that I know enough about these battles to comment on his involvement. If anyone wants to expand on these I think it would help the article. Leithp 14:28, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Style issue discussion

There is a discussion going on here whether or not the first sentence of a biographical article should contain the full name of the individual and include any post nominal initials (eg. VC, KCB, OBE) or whether these should be relegated to later in the article. I have tried to point out that this is standard style and part of their full titles but there are “readability” concerns. This arose because of the Richard O’Connor featured article and one possible solution, a biobox, is now in place on that page. Please make your opinions known.Dabbler 12:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mission or Expeditionary Force?

Dis Horrocks serve with the British Mission i.e. in a quasi-diplomatic role as Britain did not recognise the Soviet government but had a Mission in Moscow. Or was he in the military British Expeditionary Force that occupied Archangel or Murmansk for a while in 1919-20? Dabbler 19:42, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

At first he was there to co-ordinate supplies to the white armies but later he trained troops for them prior to his capture. He was over in Vladivostock, so pretty far away from Archangel. I've been puzzling over how to get a lot of this stuff into the article without overloading it with anecdotes. Leithp 19:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grave

I have a question. Does anybody know where Gen. Horrocks is buried? 19th April 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.131.29.11 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Additional refs

Initial London Gazette search to confirm promotions, decorations and honours, sarch on fullname, also need to search on combinations of names and initials, and service number. David Underdown (talk) 16:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's an odd one:
London Gazette: (Supplement) no. 29170, page 4997, 22 May 1915. Retrieved on 2008-04-22.
he was promoted to lieutenant while a prisoner? Leithp 20:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Sort of connected to that, when was Horrocks captured? I'm having some difficulty in establishing when exactly the Battle of Armentières was, although I'm assuming it was the end of October, early November. Since Horrocks was regular army, wouldn't his promotion to Lieutenant have been based on his length of service, plus presumably taking his capture into account which explains the backdating of his promotion. --Harlsbottom (talk|library) 20:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
21st October. I'll add the ref. Leithp 20:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, just to clarify, he was captured then. According to this the battle was 13th October to 2nd November. Leithp 21:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Out of interest, is there any "source" out there about Horrock's participation in The World at War - I imagine that a large portion of any of the populace acquainted with Horrocks would have first heard of him when he appeared on that. --Harlsbottom (talk|library) 23:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The IMDB perhaps? Is that a reliable source? Leithp 12:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
IMDB's reliability seems to fluctuate. The Times might have interviewed him about his involvement or to discuss his status as a TV personality (Google News Archive is tantalisingly close and yet, the moment a $ sign is visible, so far). A request at WP:MHL could address this. SoLando (Talk) 17:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Olympics

On his return to the United Kingdom Horrocks looked for something else to occupy his time and decided to take up the modern pentathlon. He competed in army tournaments and, eventually, the 1924 Paris Olympics

Do we know how well he did ? JS1 (talk) 06:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I just checked The Times - he didn't make the podium at any rate. Gold went to a Finn, Silver to a Hungarian and Bronze to an American. --Harlsbottom (talk|library) 08:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
This website says he finished 19th of 38. I'll try and see if I can find any verification for that. Leithp 18:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
That sounds about right, considering in A Full Life he writes he finished "well down in the order of merit". Speaking of which how in the hell are his memoirs available for download? There has to be some sort of copyright restriction on his work, even in the United States, surely. --Harlsbottom (talk) 12:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Given that website is well referenced, I think I might just use it to give the placing. As for the copyright status of Horrocks' autobiography, I have no idea. Leithp 13:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brigadier

Should it not read Acting rank of Brigadier , not temporary rank ?

Brigadier along with Lance Corporal in the British Army are Appointments was this the same during WW II does anyone know ? or is this just a quirk of my regiment which was a Cavalry Regiment . JS1 (talk) 07:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe Brigadier is now a substantive rank (just as is commodore in the RN), I'm not quite sure of the position in WWII, but this is the entry relating to Horrocks in London Gazette no. 35205 (see the notes section for a link)
“ The undermentioned Cols. (temp. Brigs.) to be Comdrs. and are granted the actg. rank of Maj.-Gen.: —

A. F. P. Christison, M.C. (9487). 17th June 1941.

B. G. Horrocks, M.C. (5821). 27th June 1941.

 ”
I do think that it is indeed temporary - all references in literature I've seen on Brigadier-General and Brigadier use the term "temporary", while the London Gazette seems to exclusively use "temp. rank of Brigadier" or somesuch. --Harlsbottom (talk|library) 10:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Some of the other Gazettes used inthe article do actually have acting Brigadier. I suspect it depends whether the appointment was made purely by the local CinC, or if it was confirmed by the War Office. David Underdown (talk) 11:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] MC

I've finally tracked down his MC (the OCR process used when the Gazettes were scanned had rendered his surname as Hoxrocks which is why it was a little tricky to find), his MC is amongst a batch awarded

in recognition of gallant conduct and determination displayed in escaping or attempting to escape from captivity, which services have been brought to notice in accordance with the terms of Army Order 193 of 1919. To be dated 5th May, 1919, unless otherwise stated: —

Since the only mentions of escape attempts are in relation to his time as a POW of the Germans, I've assumed that this relates to that period, rather than that of his capture by the Russians, although timewise that would fit better. Do any of the more general references about him cover this (the ODNB is no clearer). David Underdown (talk) 14:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

He didn't attempt to escape in Russia, so it would have been whilst a German POW. Leithp 16:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

1 Well written Pass

There were a few minor punctuation mistakes present in the article. I've already gone through and made a quick copyedit of that stuff. Other than that, the prose of the article is excellent. No objection here!

2 Factual accuracy MINOR FAIL

Although generally well-cited, there are a few sections in which the density is low. Of particular note are the first two paragraphs of the "Europe" section, which are either scantily cited, or not cited at all.

Other than that moderately-sized issue, the rest of the article is very-well cited.

3 Coverage PASS

Coverage is very broad, quite detailed, and very comprehensive. You've done an excellent job on this section!

4 Neutrality PASS

The article is written from quite a neutral point of view. I have gone over the article in-depth for the last hour, and I see no signs of advocacy and/or bias. No objections here.

5 Stability PASS

Other than the combining of footnotes (which I fully understand is a large process, I had to do much the same thing recently), there is no evidence of massive-editing or edit-warring between contributors.

6 Images PASS

All images are appropriately tagged with copyright status, are well-used, and do nothing to detract from the article. No objections here.

As a result, I have placed the article On Hold. As mentioned, most of the issues that need to be addressed are pretty minor, and are probably capable of being solved relatively quickly. Feel free to message me on my Talk-Page if you've got any questions. I look forward to continuing this review-process with you. Cheers! Cam (Chat) 03:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I've also gone through and done some more quick copyediting. Hope that helps.
Just checked the history, noticed you've been adding some more refs. If you can increase the density in the second paragraph of "Europe", I think we should be fine. Cheers! Cam (Chat) 05:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I think that should be it for now. Let me know what you think. Leithp 06:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
From first glance, yes. I'll do a check later when I've got time to spare, and then do the final evaluation. Cheers! Cam (Chat) 23:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
That should do it. GA Passed. Congratulations on your hard work! Cheers! Cam (Chat) 03:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)