Talk:Brewster Buffalo

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[edit] Pedantic correction & comment

As far asa the name goes, I think the aircraft is generally known as the Buffalo, at least in the English speaking world, and we should probably go with common usage, especially as it was largely used by nations other than the US. I removed reference to Zeros in Malaya in 1941 as RAAF RAF RNZAF opposition there was not Zeros, (Oscars yes, but didn't want to add a whole heap about it).

Indeed, yes, there were Zeros at Singapore, just as there were army fighters in the Indies! It's true however that I can find no specific instance of a Buffalo in combat against a Zero.
No, they weren't Zeros. Zero is naval plane, while the opposition of the Britis forces in Malaya consisted of the Japanese Army Air Force. Their opponents have either been Ki-43 Hayabusa (Oscar) or Ki-27 (Nate) planes - which are easily confused with A6M Zero and A5M (Claude).192.100.124.218 (talk) 10:58, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

"Buffalo" is of course the universal name, everywhere but Finland. Even the Marines at Midway called them Buffaloes. (The U.S. Navy never used them in combat.) --Cubdriver 5 July 2005 17:50 (UTC)

Let me precise that statement a little, they were not called Buffalo during wartime, but nowadays, the aircraft is merely known as the Brewster Buffalo in Finland. --MoRsE 12:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Apologies, let me rephrase that, there is no record of the Singapore Buffaloes meeting zeros, except for combat claims of pilots at the time, (while these were generally dismissed I notice some were at least capable of recognising an Oscar). Actually was unuaware of Zeros being involved at all until after Buffaloes were withdrawn but would welcome correction. As far as RNZAF squadron goes, you are quite right to say there was no RNZAF Buffalo squadron as such, I am uncerain whether the RNZAF controlled some of the ex-Singapore Buffaloes temporarily as they did with the Hurricanes, (see list of RNZAF aircraft on Wikipedia or Kiwi Serial numbers web site). 488(NZ) or 488(RNZAF) squadron of the Royal Air Force is frequently referred to as an RNZAF squadron - I have corrected the link so it goes to the entry for this unit, but left it under "RAF". Incidentally we are also missing Japan from the list of users - I know they got at least one airborne, but I'm not sure if it was ex Dutch, RAF or RAAF. :-)

[edit] High Attrition from Poor maintenance alone?

The fairly brief para on Buffaloes over Singapore states "The Commonwealth squadrons in Asia suffered high attrition from poor maintenance." While no doubt this is true, I suspect military action by Japan deserves a teensy little bit of credit. Contemporary accounts also seem to indicate the poor standard in which the aircraft were supplied was a major contribution.Winstonwolfe 01:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Buffalo Aces

Apart from Geof Fisken who were the other two Commonwealth Buffalo Aces? They should be named. Hugo999 12:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I've found some information, but it appears that there are more than just 3 aces on the Buffalo. I'll be adding them in soon. Wolcott 09:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Wolcott, you added that "two Dutch pilots, Jacob van Helsdingen and August Deibel, became aces on the Buffalo. They both recorded a total of three victories." The standard definition of a flying ace is five victories. Grant | Talk 13:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

Stan, do you think this one should be under Brewster Buffalo? In general, US military aircraft are known by their number rather than their name, but I think this one is an exception. It's far better known under the "Buffalo" name - possibly not in the USA (I'm no expert on th USA) but it's primarily known for its service with foreign operators, in particular the British Empire [British Commonwealth in 1926-49]. (Service? Being thrown into action against fighters that entirely outclassed it, shot it to ribbons, and killed a lot of very brave pilots counts as "service"? Oh well, you know what I mean.) Tannin

I guess I was thinking of it from purely the US point of view, where the naming rule would would disallow "Buffalo" because it's not official. Google shows 800 for "brewster f2a buffalo" leaving just 700 for "brewster f2a" without the "buffalo", and 2300 for "brewster buffalo", which seems pretty definite for what's the most common usage. I'll sleep on it, but moving the page does seem like the right idea. Stan 05:32 Apr 28, 2003 (UTC)
Change it. They're commonly called Buffalo (the Brit name), but the correct ID is F2A, & as I understand it, the official name is the one used for the page title. Trekphiler 04:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
WP:AIR does have naming conventions to settle this kind of thing. Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (aircraft): US military aircraft: Number and name. F-15 Eagle, P-47 Thunderbolt. Thus, this page should be at Brewster F2A (if we accept "Buffalo" as unofficial, which I'm not too sure about). The conventions don't make exeptions if the plane served in British service or not, as we have F-4 Phantom II and P-51 Mustang. In order to contravene the guidelines, there must be a concensus here to do so, which I don't see as yet. - BillCJ 04:57, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Bill, are there exceptions to the general rules on naming aircraft articles? FWIW Bzuk 05:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC).
BZuk, have you met an aircraft article name for which you couldn't find an exception? (Teasing!) Yes, there are a few, but they are rare (or should be, at least). But in order to have an exception, there must be a good reason to do so, and consensus for the exception. "The British didn't call it that" could be used on many American aircraft, and would end up nullifying the naming conventions altogether. So far, I haven't seen a reason here worth making an exception for. - BillCJ 05:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I've never understood why we go with US military designations, unless they are the common name.
  • American plane, American name - we try to follow the same rules for other countries too, so it's only fair. - BillCJ 08:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
The Finns made the most effective use of it and its a Finnish icon, so maybe it should go under Brewster B-239, which is what they usually called it ;-) Grant | Talk 07:30, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
You'd have to ask those who set up the guidlines. I imagine that there's archived talk on it somewhere. Being guidelines, they don't have to be followed, but you do need consensus. YOu are also welcome to propose changes to the guidelines, which is really a better way to go than fighting battles article-by-article. That's why the guidleines exist, so we don't have to have the same conversations every time over the same issue. It's usually easier to determine the country of origin than the most significant user, so this is really a better way to go.
There are many guidlines in Wikipedia in general, and WP:AIR in particular that I don't like, but I try to follow them until they are changed, or I can raise a consensus to opt out of the guidleines for a particular article. For now, WP:AIR gives priority to the name of an aircraft in its country of origin, either a company name or military designation. This doesn't just apply to American aircraft, though they do seem to be the names most objected to here.
It's getting to the point that it's almost as absurd as wanting to move American football to Gridiron football because Americans aren't the only ones who play it, but that's another issue for another page. Seriously, I can understand how non-Americans can feel offended because some Americans think everything in the world should be done or spelled the American way. What I don't understand is the attitude that American things or words can't be done or spelled the American way because it might offend someone else in the world. People seems to want Americans to be tolerant of ways that are different, but can't extend the same courtesy to Americans. - BillCJ 08:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
My point is that the US military hardly used this particular plane, so how could F2A be considered the "common name"? The general rule at WP is common names, not official/original names. Grant | Talk 08:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC):::::You will find it difficult to make the case that the US military "hardly used" the Buffalo since it was the first monoplane USN fighter in operational service. The F2A Buffalo is probably not as easily recognizable as the type name but it is a valid name; having said that, I agree that "Brewster Buffalo" is probably the most widely known appellation and unless there is widespread consensus for a name change, I would be comfortable with that name. FWIW Bzuk 12:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC).
The Common name part doesn't apply here, as the plane is American, and has US miltary designation. This is not a case like the Martin Maryland Martin Baltimore, where they had US military designation (XA-22 and A-30 respectively), but did not see US service or usage in any way beyond simple evaluation. In fact, the "A-30" designation was only assigned for Lend-Lease purposes. I moved the XA-22 Maryland to its current name for those reasons, with discussion. At this point, the Brewster Buffalo name is contrary to the established guidelines, and there was no consensus here or elsewhere to exempt it. Most likely, the page was here before the guidelines were clearly established, and was simply overlooked. As far as I am concered, we need a consensus to keep the non-standard article name, not to move it. - BillCJ 17:31, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I vote to move it, retaining "Brewster Buffalo" as redirect (of course). This will help standardize the aircraft articles. Binksternet 18:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

While I know what the normal rules for aviation articles are, there is a grey area here. At what point does foreign usage take over from official US designations. A "common name" means the name most often used.

This brings me to another point; there is no indication of how many of the supposed "500" served with US Navy or USMC squadrons. Does anyone know? Grant | Talk 20:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Given what Rlandmann (rightly) says here about the Martin 167, I'm happy to leave it. My feeling is, if it actually entered service, the original operator should get priority, but in this case, I'm not strong for/against. Trekphiler (talk) 00:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC) (BTW, if anybody's interested, when I copied the page here, it was as F2A. So there. =D)
163 out of 509 Buffalos went to the USN and USMC. On Dec. 7th about 90 were on hand.Markus Becker02 (talk) 13:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Finnish use

Something that's not in the text, is how finland got these aircraft. The war probably hadn't started yet when they acquired them, but I'm assuming that finland already had ties to nazi germany back then, probably making them a questionable business partner from a political perspective. Are there any sources on this? -- MiG (talk) 16:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

See Winter_War#Foreign_support. The international community was almost as opposed to the Soviet invasion of Finland as it was to the Nazi invasion of Poland. Grant | Talk 00:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent review

I would like to enlist other editors in assessing this article which had recently been classed as a "start" and to my mind, does not fit that category. See examples of start articles. FWIW, the example of a "start" article is 1st Battalion 2nd Marines. Bzuk (talk) 05:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC).

[edit] Brewster FA

F2A would be the second US Navy fighter produced by Brewster - which was the first? Drutt (talk) 03:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's the explanation: Under the naval system of aircraft designation, Brewster was assigned the manufacturer's identification letter of 'A', which had previously been allocated to the General Aviation Corporation (ex-Atlantic). Since General Aviation had already produced an aircraft designated FA back in 1932, the designation XF2A-1 was assigned to the Brewster aircraft. Drutt (talk) 18:08, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
General Aircraft XFA Drutt (talk) 21:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brewster 339B

What was the B-339B? Drutt (talk) 17:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

An export model intended for Belgium[1]. Drutt (talk) 18:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)