Talk:Breton language

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Contents 1 "Hello" in Breton language 2 Statistics from WP accesses 3 unique law? 4 Humiliating practices are History 5 León link disambiguation 6 How to prononce "Brezhoneg" 7 Gender 8 Distribution 9 IPA table 10 No mention of either stress or accent, 11 .bzh - Proposed for deletion 12 Catholic church

[edit] "Hello" in Breton language

how do u say "HELLO" in this language??? ==

There is no single agreed equivalent for hello in Breton. Various phrases tend to be used depending on time of day, familiarity of interlocutors, etc. Among the most common are demat and salud, but often one simply asks someone how they are with a phrase such as penaos 'mañ ar bed ganeoc'h. Man vyi 13:16, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

In my family, it was usual to start a conversation by the weather : "Brav eo an amzer hirie !" ,"Nice weather today !". Even with strangers. Or a more familiar "Mont' a ra ?", a sort of "Are you well ?". Never heard an equivalent of "Hello". It was the way to speak, not a lack of politness. NEVER use the so-known "kenavo", wich means "goodbye" ! Gwalarn 03:10, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Statistics from WP accesses

Statistics on Wikipedia accesses from France and some surrounding countries show that hardly anybody accesses the Breton Wikipedia. I wonder what we can conclude out of this about the number of people who can really read Breton. David.Monniaux 10:03, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Partially right, but the main issue is that the Breton WP is more than thin. Because a few people can write Breton fluently, and a few among them know Wikipedia, and finally a few of those are involved in writing for WP. Today, maybe less than 5 ? Gwalarn 13:03, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You might wish to consider your remarks regarding the Breton wikipedia that you left on the Breton language talk page last year [1] in the light of the fact that Breton is the Celtic language with the most articles by far on the Wikipedia and is soon to move up to the 10,000 mark.

Neal: Breton Wikipedia Moderator

A huge progression! War raok ! Gwalarn 09:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] unique law?

I removed [in regard to the article of the French constitution stating French is the language of the Republic]:

, which is unique in Europe

In what way is this unique in Europe? Other countries define official languages as well (Constitution of Ireland, article 8, for example). Is the law unique for specifying French as the sole official language, or what? —Gabbe 20:50, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)

Is there evidence that each year, there are more protesters demanding the repeal of the constitutional amendment? (Note: I'm not hostile to Breton, just I have an impression that some of the content of this article is written with a certain POV.) David.Monniaux 07:38, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The "unique law" is not the Constitution (wich is technically not a law), it is a law from the minister Toubon who obliged French language for every thing written or sold or treated on the French ground. This law was voted in 1994 (in France, some jokers called it the 'AllGood' law). Incidently, it gives obligation to teach in French only. So the school "Diwan", which is a monolingual school in Breton, is de facto out of law and cannot hope subsidies from the government as any other school. In fact, in France, you have no right to learn your language in its traditional speaking area. Only as a foreign language as English or Russian. That's what certains call a "linguicide", the will to kill the local languages. And on my own experience, the French governement approves of this linguicide. Gwalarn 00:26, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hem. Sorry to nitpick, but there were a few points to clarify in your explanation:

• We have an article called Toubon Law, and, no, this law does not impose the French language for every thing written on French ground. Consider reading the law. Imposing a language for privately produced publications etc. would probably be unconstitutional anyway.
• The Toubon Law indeed declares French to be the language of (public) education.
• Modifications to the Constitutions are lois constitutionnelles.
• The Diwan schools are not "outlawed". If they were outlawed, they would already have been closed. They are not state-subsidized.
• Not all schools are state-subsidized anyway (but it is true that most private schools are state-subsidized). David.Monniaux 07:27, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

OK for the precisions. Some more precisions : the Toubon law imposed the facts I stated. But some of those articles were declared "unconstitutional". French version, from the site www.legifrance.gouv.fr:

Dans la désignation, l'offre, la présentation, le mode d'emploi ou d'utilisation, la description de l'étendue et des conditions de garantie d'un bien, d'un produit ou d'un service, ainsi que dans les factures et quittances, l'emploi de la langue française est obligatoire. [Dispositions déclarées non conformes à la Constitution par décision du Conseil constitutionnel n° 94-345 DC du 29 juillet 1994.]

Approximat. translation : In designation, offer, presentation, user's guide, security agreement for a good or a service, like in the bills and quittances, the use of French language is compulsory (dispositions declared unconstitutional)

Some other articles unconstitutional like this one : the obligation to make ads (oral, printed, etc.) in French

The law was discussed, adopted (voted), then partially defined as "out of the Constitution". But the bad articles are not abroged or withdrawn, just defined "not applicable". They are still available.

• It is true that Diwan itself is not outlaw, but some of General Councils give it subsidies the school must refund, because they are forbidden. And there is no way to pay the teachers with public funds, which is the best way to avoid having teachers. Finally, to learn the language of your fathers, you have to be rich enough to pay your own teacher.

I agree with "lois constitutionnelles", but the constitution itself is not a law.

Recent decision from the French highest Court (Cour de Cassation), about the obligation in France to sell documentation of technical products in French language :

• http://www.tpe-pme.com/articlesid.asp?NomArticle=art1209.html.

(if link broken, see http://legifrance.gouv.fr/ and search the decision n° 03-85642 from the Cassation criminelle, 3 novembre 2004). This judgment clearly follows what I said here about the obligation to use the French language, even in private contracts. Incidentally, it shows that if an article is "unconstitutional", it may have force of law, anyway. Not a good news for Diwan. 80.170.54.245 Gwalarn 14:57, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the whole penultimate paragraph in 1 is misleading and NPOV. What about Basque in the South-West, isn't that a non-official celtic language? Shelta? Cornish? What about other minority languages, for example Lorrain?

We need to change it to make clear:

• Whether Breton is treated differently from other non-French languages in France
• How much of this the Loi Toubon defines
• How much of this the Constitution defines

We should talk about how this is different from Welsh in the UK or other celtic languages.

Some precisions : Basque is not a Celtic language. Cornish has never been spoken in France. And I don't know what is "Shelta".

I don't think France has a different regard to any of its traditional languages. But it seems to be a different idea : the mistreatment in France of the non-French languages should make a whole article, and the situation of the less-spoken languages in Europe may, too. It does not remove any of the points highlighted above, which refers only to the situation of Breton comparing with French. Gwalarn 18:23, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Humiliating practices are History

• According to the defenders of the Breton language, humiliating practices geared toward stamping out Breton lingered in schools and churches until the 1960s.

Ok, it's not a word from the "defenders of the Breton language", it is history : all my grand parents, knowing only "oui" and "no" in French when primarely going to school (and their parents nothing at all) had to make tough job to learn French. All the public life was oriented "no Breton", with special treatments for young speakers. Only one language in the Republic schools : French, from Lille to the Ivory Coast. As there were no French speakers in the area of my grand parents, the teacher give the pupils frequent penalties when they were taught speaking Breton in the school of the Republic. This helped to remember French words. The Bretons accepted it as a price to pay, to give to their children a real place in the French Republic, laic and (only) French-speaking. At least they can be soldiers, civil servants, have a better job, follow more studies, etc. So they encourage their children to stop speaking Breton. And now the link between generations is broken, except in small areas. According to the French lawn, it was forbidden to give to your child a Breton first name, until the 1980's. On the road, the double signage starts only in the '90. Breton speaker is an "endangered species" ! Recently the French State Court rejected the right to teach pupils in Breton, according to the 2nd article of the Constitution : "French is the language of the Republic" ; full stop. Gwalarn 00:05, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hem. "Recently the French State Court rejected the right to teach pupils in Breton". No, it rejected the use of public money to subsidize such education. That's fairly different. David.Monniaux 11:05, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] León link disambiguation

I'm trying to disambiguate the Leon page. This page links to it with an ambiguous "Leon" dialog link. I don't know which of the options on the page to transfer the link to (or none). Can someone who knows please fix the link - either direct it to one of the Leon page disambig options, or link it to a new (to be created) page? Thanks, DarbyAsh 05:44, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How to prononce "Brezhoneg"

like brez-honeg, or is the zh one sound like in bonjour?

No, zh is usually pronunced like a Z in Kerne Leon and Tregor, and it is pronunced like an H in the Gwennedeg dialect.

[edit] Gender

Does Breton have the same masculine/feminie gender system as Irish and Welsh? — Hippietrail 00:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know for those languages, but the gender system is the same as French, Spanish, Portuguese : masculine or feminine for every noun. But not in exact correspondance with the gender of French words. Gwalarn 10:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Distribution

I had to remove the linked image showing a map of the distribution of Breton and Gallo languages, because it was deleted from wiki commons for not explaining where it came from. If someone could find a new image that would be great. Murderbike 01:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Are there any data anyone could find that shows the actual current distribution of Breton in Brittany similar to the Gaeltachtaed maps for Irish and Scottish Gaelic? It says there are 500k speakers, but other places (like Wikitravel) says Breton is limited to a few old people and scholars. I think it is important to paint a realistic portrait of the distribution and extent of language use.65.100.32.202 (talk) 04:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC) 65.100.32.202 (talk) 04:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC) 65.100.32.202 (talk) 04:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IPA table

Strictly speaking, ɥ and w do not belong in the two-dimensional IPA table. They are usually shown outside it. Right now, it looks like ɥ is a voiceless j, which is not the case.

[edit] No mention of either stress or accent,

and I guess it's just an omission rather than a characteristic of the language.

[edit] .bzh - Proposed for deletion

Hi,

I am proposing the article .bzh for deletion. Please see Talk:.bzh for explanation. Your input is welcome. --Amir E. Aharoni 07:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Catholic church

The article states that after the Second Vatican Council the Catholic Church turned against the Breton language. What does this refer to?--HarryHenryGebel (talk) 19:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)