Talk:Bretagne
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[edit] Five départements
The complicated reasoning advanced here for the mutilation of Brittany by the Pétain government in 1941 is highly tendentious and should probably not be considered at "encyclopedia" material. Recent public opinion polls in the Loire Atlantique département all show a significant majority in favour of reunification.--Boulet rouge (talk) 18:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Though I see the value of keeping the article on the modern French région distinct from the history of Brittany, I think this article should be at Brittany, as that's its most common name in English. There is some precedent for this, e.g. Munich (not München) and Germany (not Deutschland).
I think if I told someone "I'm going on holiday to Bretagne" I could not expect to be understood except by somene with some knowledge of French. Most likely "Bretagne" would be misunderstood to be "Britain". --Saforrest 15:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
- Er, on rereading, the fact that historical Brittany is divided between two régions makes me reconsider. Though I think we might consider rewriting the introduction. Arguably "Brittany" is the English version of "Bretagne" the peninsula / cultural area / historical duchy, but Bretagne the région has no English name other than Bretagne. --Saforrest 15:58, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
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- From what I can tell, many people in Loire-Atlantique would consider it part of "Bretagne", despite the fact that the Vichy government dislocated from Brittany.
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- Despite the different extents of the historical province and the modern region, I would really be in favor of referring to them both as "Brittany". (Perhaps the two articles could be called "Brittany (province)" and "Brittany (region)" or something similar.) But the current Brittany-Bretagne distinction seems quite contrived and arbitrary to me, and if we were to extend this logic it would lead to absurdities. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 20:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
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I would like the origins of the comic book asterix and obelix to be added somewhere in the history. It's a great book about the history of the area from a fun light hearted perspective and is a world known book translated into many languages. It talks about the romans fighting the Gaules or Gaulois because, like romans do, they wanted to take over France and the Gaules were the main force existing that would fight against them.
[edit] Regions of France
Ime puzzled by the phrase "the 26 regions of France". At the foot of the page, I counted 22 regions. Are there 4 more or is there an error? ` Froggo Zijgeb 04:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Ah got it: there are 4 over-seas regions. ` Froggo Zijgeb 04:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bretagne and Brittany
I see no reason whatsoever for maintaining separate articles on Bretagne and Brittany. If this logic were to be continued, there would also be separate pages on Normandie and Normandy. In fact, the only article is Normandy. I strongly suggest that interesting items from the Bretagne article be incorporated in the one on Brittany, with a redirect from Bretagne to Brittany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ipigott (talk • contribs) 07:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- You'll notice that this article corresponds to fr:Région Bretagne and Brittany to fr:Bretagne. Normandy of course covers, among the other Norman territories, the two regions of Haute-Normandie and Basse-Normandie which like Bretagne have separate articles and are titled according to French administrative nomenclature. Man vyi 07:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- But this is the English Language version of Wikipedia and the name 'Bretagne' is not used in English! The articles should be merged, with two sections, or renamed Brittany (historic) and Brittany (modern). -- Maelor 10:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- We have similar pairs in Bourgogne and Burgundy, Picardie and Picardy. On the other hand, there's Limousin (region) and Limousin (province), Lorraine (region) and Lorraine (province), Île-de-France (region) and Île-de-France (province). To add to the inconsistency, the region of Corsica is not titled in the French form. Of course if English forms should predominate for regions of France, then Bretagne would logically be Brittany, Basse-Normandie would logically be Lower Normandy and so on. Man vyi (talk) 11:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- I changed the wording on the Alan Stivell article from "the small town of Gourin, Bretagne" to "the small town of Gourin, Brittany" because, to an English speaker, the term 'Bretagne' would not be understood. If we buy a travel guide in the UK/USA/Australia etc. it is titled 'Brittany' and that is the only name we have in English for the country. -- Maelor 19:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- Quite right - geographically the country is Brittany. For encyclopaedic purposes this article about the smaller administrative region is titled Bretagne. As I point out the titles of the region articles are not currently consistent. On the guide book question, the most up-to-date guidebook to Brittany in my possession is indeed a guide to Brittany as it includes Nantes etc. Man vyi (talk) 06:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
- This should be determined by common usage. The fact is that the modern administrative unit (région) is never referred to as Bretagne in English. English language guides in Breton Tourist Information offices refer to it as "Brittany". Other régions are referred to by their French name, because there is no separate English one ("Pays de Loire" is hardly ever referred to as "Loire Country", for example). This inconsistency is normal. It's just how language works. We have a distinct English name for "Firenze" (Florence), but not for other towns. We used to call Livorno "Leghorn" in English, but that usage is obsolete, so the Wikipedia article is called "Livorno", not Leghorn, but the article on Firenze is called "Florence". Ideally I think this should be called Brittany (region of France) or something similar. At the moment the naming is causing all sorts of confusion, due to some editors insisting on using the word "Bretagne" in other article spaces, while others insist on Brittany. See the recent edit war on the Tri Yann article. Ironically, these über-Breton folkies come from Nantes, which is not even in Région Bretagne, so the whole edit war was based on the misapplication of terminology. The problem extends to categories like musicians from Bretagne and composers from Bretagne. Tri Yann are absurdly listed in the former category. Obviously, as exponents of Breton music it's the only category they can sensibly be put in even though it's clearly wrong. It would be far more sensible for it to be called "musicians from Brittany", then it could logically include pre-1941 musicians, as well as modern musicians who self-identify as Bretons and who reside in the historical territory of Brittany. After, let's not forget that Brittany had no legal existance at all from 1789-1941, but that did not stop people being Bretons. Paul B (talk) 10:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- Well said Paul! I'm in full agreement. -- Maelor 11:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- This should be determined by common usage. The fact is that the modern administrative unit (région) is never referred to as Bretagne in English. English language guides in Breton Tourist Information offices refer to it as "Brittany". Other régions are referred to by their French name, because there is no separate English one ("Pays de Loire" is hardly ever referred to as "Loire Country", for example). This inconsistency is normal. It's just how language works. We have a distinct English name for "Firenze" (Florence), but not for other towns. We used to call Livorno "Leghorn" in English, but that usage is obsolete, so the Wikipedia article is called "Livorno", not Leghorn, but the article on Firenze is called "Florence". Ideally I think this should be called Brittany (region of France) or something similar. At the moment the naming is causing all sorts of confusion, due to some editors insisting on using the word "Bretagne" in other article spaces, while others insist on Brittany. See the recent edit war on the Tri Yann article. Ironically, these über-Breton folkies come from Nantes, which is not even in Région Bretagne, so the whole edit war was based on the misapplication of terminology. The problem extends to categories like musicians from Bretagne and composers from Bretagne. Tri Yann are absurdly listed in the former category. Obviously, as exponents of Breton music it's the only category they can sensibly be put in even though it's clearly wrong. It would be far more sensible for it to be called "musicians from Brittany", then it could logically include pre-1941 musicians, as well as modern musicians who self-identify as Bretons and who reside in the historical territory of Brittany. After, let's not forget that Brittany had no legal existance at all from 1789-1941, but that did not stop people being Bretons. Paul B (talk) 10:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- Quite right - geographically the country is Brittany. For encyclopaedic purposes this article about the smaller administrative region is titled Bretagne. As I point out the titles of the region articles are not currently consistent. On the guide book question, the most up-to-date guidebook to Brittany in my possession is indeed a guide to Brittany as it includes Nantes etc. Man vyi (talk) 06:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
- I changed the wording on the Alan Stivell article from "the small town of Gourin, Bretagne" to "the small town of Gourin, Brittany" because, to an English speaker, the term 'Bretagne' would not be understood. If we buy a travel guide in the UK/USA/Australia etc. it is titled 'Brittany' and that is the only name we have in English for the country. -- Maelor 19:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- We have similar pairs in Bourgogne and Burgundy, Picardie and Picardy. On the other hand, there's Limousin (region) and Limousin (province), Lorraine (region) and Lorraine (province), Île-de-France (region) and Île-de-France (province). To add to the inconsistency, the region of Corsica is not titled in the French form. Of course if English forms should predominate for regions of France, then Bretagne would logically be Brittany, Basse-Normandie would logically be Lower Normandy and so on. Man vyi (talk) 11:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- But this is the English Language version of Wikipedia and the name 'Bretagne' is not used in English! The articles should be merged, with two sections, or renamed Brittany (historic) and Brittany (modern). -- Maelor 10:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
