Talk:Breslov (Hasidic dynasty)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Judaism Portal
Breslov (Hasidic dynasty) is part of WikiProject Judaism, a project to improve all articles related to Judaism. If you would like to help improve this and other articles related to the subject, consider joining the project. All interested editors are welcome. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Judaism articles.
Project Judaism To-do:
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as high-importance on the importance scale.
Israel Portal
Breslov (Hasidic dynasty) is part of WikiProject Israel, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, visit the project page where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Israel articles.
Project Israel To Do (Drop-Down Menu):
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Photo of Breslov's "head"

The photo on this page identifies Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser as "The Head" of Breslov Hasidism. This is not correct. First of all, he is now deceased (died 1994). Second, there is no one "head" of Breslov Hasidism. There are several different groups of Breslov Hasidim today, with many leaders whom different Breslovers look up to for advice. This caption would better read something like, "Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser, a respected leader (but not the Rebbe) within Breslov Hasidism. Died 1994." I would have changed it myself but I don't know how to do captions yet. Please do so. (Posted by Rabbi Yonassan Gershom, webmaster at Hasidism.info, and a Breslover Hasid.)

Update: I figured out how to change the caption. (Rooster613 is Rabbi Gershom's ID here)

Rooster613 06:27, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)The full quote regarding Rebbe Nachman's opinion on the nature of a Tzaddik's soul is as follows. I am putting this here rather than on the page itself (where I did add the source and page ref.) because I feel it would clutter up the article to put it all there.

Nathan of Nemirov (Rebbe Nachman's personal secretary) wrote in Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom: "The Rebbe (i.e., Nachman) spoke out very strongly against those who thought that the main reason for a Tzaddik's great attainments was the high level of his soul. He insisted that this was not true, maintaining that it depends completely on good deeds (mitzvot)and effort. He was very specific in emphasizing this. He said, 'Every person can attain the highest level. It depends on nothing but your own free choice... For everything depends upon a multitude of deeds.'" (page 29) On the same page Rabbi Nathan also quotes Rebbe Nachman as saying that he was not automatically a Tzaddik because of his family background (as great-grandson of the Baal Shem Tov), but only through his own efforts and "Devoting his entire being to the service of God." User:Rooster613

[edit] Na Nach Nachma

Perhaps a section should be put in on the N-Na-Nach-Namchma-Nachman.http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1172--PinchasC 13:56, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Excellent idea! I will gladly do it (unless somebody else does first) but probably not until after Pesach. Maybe we should also have a separate page on Rabbi Odesser (who introduced the Na-Nach-Nachma-Nachman-m'Uman chant.) I have some bio info on him, and we already have a photo here. Rooster613 01:03, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is best that you do it, being that you seem to understand Breslov, and its customs, as opposed to somone else that will only write on what he sees and not on what really is.--PinchasC 01:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's finally done! Follow the link Na Nach Nachma to check it out. Re: use of the word mantra: I realize this is not an authentically Jewish term, but it has entered the English language, it describes the process, and there's a Wiki page on it. So it makes sense to use it here. Rooster613

[edit] Photo of Rebbe Nachman's grave

The photo that was added on 21 Sept is not how the grave looks today. This picture was probably taken before 1999. Yoninah 19:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The former caption read that this was how the grave looked "for over 50 years." That is also not accurate. At one time, there was a small white building for the pilgrims to pray in. This was later destroyed (by the Nazis?) The Breslov on the Internet site has a colorized photo of this building circa 1922. During the Communist regime, there was nothing so overt on the grave -- simply a flat, ground-level cement slab to mark where it was, and a rickety old wooden bench to sit on. This gave it the appearance of garden landscaping, to mark where the grave was. (It had been located after the Nazis destroyed the cemetery by finding the remains of the foundation of the building mentioned above, and preserved by the family whose house was later built on that land.) I have some old books and pamphlets with photos of this slab and bench. (Unfortunately, the pics are not in the common domain.) The lovely gravestone and embroidered covering was probably not added until after the fall of Communism in 1989. (Anybody know for sure?) It did look like this pic when I was there in 1997, so let's say "around 1997" for this pic caption, OK? Rooster613 12:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC)Rooster613
Based on a book that is about to be published by Breslov Research Institute, the grave remained a slab of cement on the ground until 1991, when a low concrete monument was placed over it. In 1992, with the help of Reb Michel Dorfman, this monument was replaced by a marble one. The whole house was redesigned to incorporate the grave in 1999. So let's say this is how the grave looked in the 1990's. I hope to add significant detail about the grave, the house, and the whole story of how Rebbe Nachman's grave was rediscovered in the article about Uman, Ukraine. Yoninah 14:07, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bratzlav or Breslau?

This article begans with the rather emphatic declaration that "Breslov is not Breslau or Bratzlav or Bratislava." However, someone is making redirects in other articles about Breslov personalities, to the effect that any mention of the town of "Breslov" redirects to "Bratslav." On the Bratslav page it says specifically that this is the town in which Rebbe Nachman lived and taught. Could someone please clear this up? If Breslov is not Bratslav, what is it? Remember that towns in Ukraine didn't have Jewish names to start with. Yoninah 11:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I just found this entry on the breslov.org (Breslov Research Institute) FAQ page: "Breslov is sometimes transliterated as Bratzlav or Braclav, and should not be confused with Bratislava in Czechoslovakia or Breslau in Germany"[1]. Based on this, I'm going ahead and changing the sentence in this article to associate Breslov with Bratslav. Yoninah 21:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Please distinguish the movement from the city

Until now, everyone's been writing "Breslov" whether they're referring to the hasidic dynasty or to the town. I just went through all the links to this page and make sure everything links to [Breslov (Hasidic Dynasty)]. All references to the city should read: [Bratslav|Breslov]. Thank you. Yoninah 16:06, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

    • That's appropriate, but keep in mind that many Hasidim do use "Breslov" for both the movement and the town itself. Also, it was primarily Martin Buber, writing in German, who made the mistake of calling him "Nachman von Bratzlaw" (W=V sound in German) confusing the German city with the Ukrainian one. (I ran into this while speaking in Germany.) From there it became "Nachman of Bratslav" or "Bratslau" (mistaking the German -aw for the "OW" sound in English?) in academic works based on Buber, etc. In academe "Bratslav" is still used for both the movement and the town. However, since the Hasidim cal themselves "Breslov" I think that should be the main usage for the movement. Rooster613 00:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] External links

The external links section is beginning to look like a posterboard for any organization or person who has "Breslov" in their title. Is this proper Wikipedia style? Yoninah 20:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Answering your question, first mi nick name es "Bresolver" no "Breslover", OK?. And the links are to Breslov's pages, and this are what breslov pages said. Bresolver 00:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What Wikipedia is not

Hi Bresolver: Yoninah's concerns are legitimate. Kindly familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, and especially please read:

If you have questions, feel free to ask. IZAK 02:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


Please, explain me why you think i put wrong links? I just put breslovers links! Bresolver 04:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of an encyclopedia is to provide factual information in a neutral, journalistic approach that we call N-POV (Neutral Point of View). This does not mean we must list every single Breslov site on the Web. Sites that are simply promoting a particular yeshiva, radio station, book, rabbi, collections of sermons, or whatever without giving much factual info that would be useful in research ABOUT Breslov seem inappropriate to me. Some of the links added recently, such as Radio Breslov, are already linked on the link launcher, "Breslov on the Internet," hence redundant. (However, that site DOES want to list everything on the Net, so if you get listed there, your group is indirectly linked anyway.) And I do not think that sites primarily in Hebrew are useful to an English encyclopedia. I went through every outside link today and removed those that seemed inappropriate. Granted, this is my personal call, but I have put in a lot of effort trying to keep this and other Breslov pages reasonably N-POV. Rooster613 00:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613


NOOOOO, YOU ARE CRAZY MAN, LOOK AT SATMAR ARTICLE!! YOU QUIT THE BEST... BYE WIKIPEDIA..THIS OVER..

[edit] Correction

"The well-known tune to Ani Maamin ("I believe") is attributed to Breslover Hasidim who sang it on their way to the gas chambers." The song is from modzitz hassidim, you can find the history here: http://www.modzitz.org/ in the part of the storys. Kol tuv (sorry for the ortography mistaques) Bresolver 21:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the info. Regarding "Ani Ma'amin," I have heard form several Holocaust survivors that Breslovers popularized it in the camps. However, this would not negate the tune coming from Modzitz. Perhaps both are true? Rooster613 00:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613

Maybe both are true... The Breslov page is one of the worst of all the hasidic dynasties, Dont you think? 01:18, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this page needs a significant stylistic overhaul. However, I just don't have the time right now to do it. Yoninah 21:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling errors

Dear Bresolver: I appreciate your sincerity and attempts to make this a better page, but am finding it very hard to deal with your spelling errors. If every time you add something, someone else has to fix it up, you will find that your words will also be changed. Perhaps you could find an English dictionary or a friend to help you before you change the page? Thanks, Yoninah 21:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Okey, but i haven't a lot of time...excuse me im trying to do the better. Bresolver 04:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it is productive to make statements about which Hasidic dynasty has the worst page(s) -- this rings to much like sectarian quarresl. If a page has problems, please contribute some content, not flames. Rooster613 18:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name of the movement

The Name is Breslev and not Breslov, breslev is a game of words "bris-lev -cincursicion of the heart" like is write on Sichot HaRan.

To whoever is posting these anonymous comments: They really hold little weight with us regular editors. Perhaps you could log in with a user name and join the discussion as a legitimate participant? Yoninah 13:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

What is the difference? is the real name of the movement is breslev, don't care if i'm log in or not.

Logging in gives you some credibility as to who you are and what your sources of info are. Now, it is true that the spelling "Breslev" is used by at least one group in Israel, so perhaps this should be mentioned as an alternative spelling and disambiguated. However, In the English language, the spelling "Breslov" is the one most commonly used by Breslover Hasidim. (The difference may well be one of regional accents -- Ashkenazi vs Sephardic or some such, since only one vowel change is in dispute.) Breslov is also the spelling used by the Breslov Research Institute (for which, perhaps, we should have a page?) -- a major publisher of Breslov materials in English. Rooster613 18:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Schick- Yavniel

Rabbi Schick- Yavniel branch of breslov should be addressed as well...


Famous curse: there is a story that when Joseph Kennedy just before WWII used his influence as the U.S. Ambassador to the UK to prevent Jews in German held territories being granted visas (and safety) to the US, the Rebbe cursed him and his entire family for his actions - many believe that the problems of the family (down to the drunk driving accident of Patrick Kennedy) all date to that curse - does anyone want to place that in the story?Incorrect

Are you sure you're not mixing up rebbes? Rebbe Nachman died in 1810, and Breslov hasn't had another since. Yoninah 22:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

whoops, your're correct, I just checked, the story involves the Belz'e Rebbe, I've posted the above there. Thanks.Incorrect 02:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title

As the article states correctly, this article is about the Breslov movement or branch of chasidus. It cannot be about the Breslov (Hasidic dynasty) for the simple reason that Reb Nachman had no successor and therefore did not start a dynasty. In the interests of accuracy, can we move the article to "Breslov"?--Redaktor 20:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It's somewhat, kinda accurate. If you take dynasty to mean a passing of something down a chain of successors rather than as a herditary thing. (Which admittadly is more accurate.) Plus, you could just surrender to the fact that "dynasty" has come to be the English word for a Chasidic sect. Shia1 13:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

But there is no chain of succession, as there has been no rebbe in Breslov since Rabbi Nachman. And I do not accept that 'dynasty' is the English word for a chasidic 'sect'.--Redaktor 21:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not accurate

This statement, "Its Hasidim see Torah life as the means to a joyful existence," is not accurate. The wording should be reversed to, "Breslov Hasidis sees a joyful existence as the means to living a Torah life." Rebbe Nachman never said doing mitzvahs will make you happy, he said being happy will help you do mitzvahs, and is a mitzvah in and of itself which a person is obligated to keep regardless of how he feels. Also it should be pointed out that the definition of joy is different from the Western definition. Shia1 13:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Fine. Please edit accordingly. And add a source if you have one.--Redaktor 21:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)