Talk:Brenda Shaffer

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Contents

[edit] Stub

Guys; this is what I put together as a stub but was removed from the main page. Some information is missing (where I have put "?") and I am trying to find these information so fill in the gap if you know the answer please. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brenda_Shaffer/Temp

Don't use this one for now: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brenda_Shaffer&oldid=104606815 Kiumars

Try not to copy large chunks of text from some published article, instead try to make a compilation of various sources. It will not be copyright violation then. Grandmaster 06:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster; do you see big chunks of text in the article? By the way quoting a few lines from an article falls under fair use. Kiumars
I did not really check, just was trying to help you to make article free of copyright problems. Grandmaster 08:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, the whole first paragraph was copied/pasted from the mfa.az source. This is copyright violation. - Francis Tyers · 08:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Francis Tyers see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brenda_Shaffer/Temp; I used quotation marks and should be ok now. Kiumars

Francis Tyers by the way do you see any copyriht sign on the website of The ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan? I am going to ask them anyway. Kiumars

[edit] Missing information

Guys, now I need to know when and where she was born? What is her religion (I assume she is Jewish), I assume she is Israeli because she was graduated from Tel Aviv University and works for IDF but we need concrete evidences. Also any academic reviews on her books and works will be appreciated. Kiumars

Yes, I think I can get you some academic reviews. From what I understand, she worked for the Israeli government and is very anti Iranian, claiming that Iran is a fictitious state and other such ridiculous things.Azerbaijani 20:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Helllllpppppppp

Francis_Tyers has put a copyright tag on Brenda Shaffer article and does not reply to my posts and questions! How can we solve this problem? Kiumars

Sorry no one's available to help right now. You may want to try WP:RFC. Good luck. Xiner (talk, email) 02:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not remove the helpme tag until the issue is resolved! Kiumars

The helpme tag is for your own talk page, not article pages or talk pages. The copyvio notice tells you the appropriate course of action but a few notes based on the above
  • Putting quotes around large chunks of text does not resolve a copyvio problem
  • Copyright is automatic and implicit, the lack of a copyright notice on a site does not mean it is not copyrighted.

---pgk 12:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ref: hangon

I changed the contested copyright part and put links to sources instead! Guys what you are all missing is that her biographies in the three sources I have provided are identical word for word (did they violate the coprright?). I hope putting URLs is not a copyright violation here, is it? Now let’s move on, we have far more interesting issues to look at soon! The next stage will be to contest her academic merits! I love this.

See the latest changes at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brenda_Shaffer/TempKiumars

Ok, guys, I have rewritten it, it should be ok now please check the article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brenda_Shaffer/Temp

Please do not place the {{helpme}} on any page other than your own talk page. You can refer to the article from there. --pgk 18:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Amendments

Azerbaijani, please do not remove items without discussing first; I see this as vandalism. Kiumars

Ali; Religion plays a major role in our lives, it is on our birth & death certificates and we are judged and even buried according to our religions; and we all have certain loyalty to our religious beliefs. So it does matter. Kiumars

[edit] anon

Please do not spam articles with useless links for promotional purposes. I removed your link because it has nothing to do with Brenda Shaffer and is an interpretation by some other person...Azerbaijani 01:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Please do not remove biographical information. If you dont like where its positioned, thats one thing, but do not remove information. She was educated in Israel, whats the big deal? Why remove it?Hajji Piruz 16:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason why the very first line should say that Shaffer received education in Israel. Is it supposed to make some point or what? I don't see any other biography being arranged like that. Information about her education can be found in the biography section, where it belongs. --Grandmaster 04:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unbalanced section unbalances article

The "Reviews and Criticism" section (by far the largest in this biography of a living person) is skewed toward unfavourable views and relies on lengthy quotes with large quotation markup. It needs editing as per neutral point of view policy. I tagged it with {{POV-check-section}}. — Athaenara ✉ 01:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. This article has serious neutrality issues. All the criticism is coming from Iranian or pro-Iranian sources. Also, is it Ok to bring the education of this person into the very first line of the sentence, like this: Dr. Brenda Shaffer is an American-born Israeli-educated writer and research fellow at Harvard University? It looks like this is done to make some point. Normally the education is dealt with in the biography section. Grandmaster 05:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Which sources are pro-Iranian? Is Harpers magazine Iranian/pro-Iranian? Is Even Siegel Iranian/pro-Iranian? Is Ralph Luker Iranina/pro-Iranian? Brenda Schaffer is a highly controversial person. Most reviews of her are negative, and this is proportionally shown in the reviews and criticism section, simply because she basically gets paid to re-write history or distorts history to fit her political agenda. Touraj Atabaki is the only Iranian listed, and he is an expert. You had no problem with Atabaki before: [1]. Also, I dont see whats wrong with saying that she was Israeli educate? I dont understand why you want to remove that from the intro so much. There is nothing wrong with here being educated in Israel, I dont understand why references to Israel should be removed.Hajji Piruz 14:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
the article in Harper's Magazine's review has "Academics for Hire" in its TITLE!! (if you know what I mean), so, really what do you expect from the user who put that references in the article? misrepresent the source?
Please remember that you must say something like this for complaining about POV issue: "there are reviews from experts in academia who acclaimed her work, but this article has downplayed it/didn't mention it", but apparently it is not the issue, whenever and wherever you found a positive review, you are welcome to add it to this article but we can not misrepresent the reviews. --Pejman47 14:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Shaffer is not controversial, a couple of negative reviews do not make her such, considering that they come from people with evident bias such as Atabaki and Siegel. And yes, there are more positive reviews, I just see no point in adding them, as the reviews section takes inappropriately large space. Also, show me another article about a scholar, which mentions the place of education in the very first line. This article tends to become a character assassination attempt, which is not good and does not comply with NPOV requirements and biography article standards. Community attention is required here. Grandmaster 17:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I am looking forward listening to your list of "more positive reviews" from academia; so we can rewrite that section completely. and Don't forget to send an email to Harper Magazine and complain abot their "character assassination"; and also you need a solid proof for your claim about the bias of Atabaki and siegel; Don't forget you also used them in other articles, without any hesitations. --Pejman47 22:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Brenda Shaffer thanked Siegel in her book and she even used Atabaki as a source in her book. Therefore, these two have a right to have their opinion expressed.

Shaffer is a post doc not a scholar. She lacks serious academic credentials. She is a not a "scholar", Atabaki and Siegel are full Professors. You, as well as others, have used one or both before. Harper magazine is not biased. Ralph Luker, Evan Siegel, and Ken Silverstein are not Iranians. I have already posted some of Brenda Shaffers article titles for you before.Hajji Piruz 17:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

after around 2 weeks that the tag added, I can not see any sound reasoning for keeping that tag, and the above responses has not been answered. If anybody has any objection, mention it here. Thanks, --Pejman47 18:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
The tag should remain until third party editors review the article. So far that has not been done. Grandmaster 06:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reviews

LOL. One of the sources was just a person who had read the book and summarized it. Did anyone even actually read it? The entire article is ridiculous, non scholarly, and definetly not reliable or even in a position to be in a "reviews and criticisms" section.

The second source was from the The Journal of International Security Affairs which is published by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs which is a neo-conservative think tank (according to the website: [2]). Not to mention that it is also non-scholarly.Hajji Piruz 03:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, Atabaki is Iranian background source. Why Jewish-linked source is bad. As for your first comment - again it is your opinion with regard to that source.--Dacy69 19:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You yourself used Atabaki and he is considered an expert. The The Journal of International Security Affairs is not scholarly and it is a neo-conservative organization, which is why it cannot be used.Hajji Piruz 22:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Now Alexanderpar is removing sourced information. please discuss yopur edit--Dacy69 15:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

AlexanderPar stop removing sourced information from the article without proper explanation. Discuss your edits. Atabek 02:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
The explanations have been given. Please read what others have to say.Hajji Piruz 05:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Pejman, please explain why the place of education needs to be mentioned in the very fisrt line of the article? What's wrong with education in Israel and why place of education is not mentioned in the first line of articles about other people? Why do you attach so much importance to this fact? Grandmaster 16:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

So, can I imply from your comment above that there is something "wrong with education in Israel"? and please give me any policy for not mentioning the education of somebody in the lead.
and don't blind revert; you remove the category too. --Pejman47 16:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Show me any other biographical article that does that. And please explain why this fact should be mentioned in the very first line. Grandmaster 05:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
sorry, I don't get your reasoning. You are the one who must show that it is in conflict with one of the policies of Wikipedia (for example BLP,...).
But, just for your objection, I moved that part after mentioning her current academic status in Harvard. I hope it will solve the issue. --Pejman47 17:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The Journal is a non neutral and non scholarly source, it doesnt belong here or anywhere on Wikipedia as a source.Hajji Piruz 23:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It is as good as Siegel. Both are Jewish sources, if it is OK to use one, it is OK to use the other. It cannot be called non-neutral just on the basis of ethnic affiliation, because you use Siegel. The argument that the source is not scholarly is simply ridiculous, it is more scholarly than Harpers magazine. Grandmaster 09:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Siegel is a full professor not affiliated with any political organization with agenda's. Why are you making this a race issue? Who cares if he is Jewish or not? His religion does not make him who he is, his work does. Please dont judge a person based on their religion. Him being Jewish has nothing to do with his reliability as a source. The journal is a neo conservative political organization that is un scholarly, that is the difference. Harpers magazine is a very prestigious magazine.

Also, please assume good faith regarding the actions of other users. Thanks.Hajji Piruz 16:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

In response to Atabeks statement: [3] (which he has removed): Read the discussion above, it has been thoroughly discussed. Again, please assume good faith, and dont jump straight to the conclusion that I removed that section without even discussion the issue.Hajji Piruz 19:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Int Security magazine can be quoted here as we have Atabaki, as i said once.--Dacy69 14:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I rvd a self-admited and indef banned sock User:Hu1lee: [4] According to the arbcom clerk, such rvs are not restricted by any parole: [5] Grandmaster 10:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Suny's review is verifiable info. It could also be found on Amazon.com. So no need to add POV claims. Grandmaster (talk) 06:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
man bu reviewi gormadim. Never seen such a review. Maybe there is, but taking her words (on her website) about herself is not reliable. To Brenda herself: If you say controversial things, at least have some courage and do not delete criticism. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
If you did not see it, it does not mean that it does not exist. It is also quoted on Amazon.com. Grandmaster (talk) 07:53, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
If she was correct and honest she should had given the source. Yes I have not seen it and Brenda herself has not been helpful. If one had access to the source one could read the whole review in totall and could interpreted it in its context. Then there might have been unpleasant text in it which Brenda did not like. If I find this (hypothetical) review by Suny I will be aeager to add some more quotes from it to this article. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prof. Suny

I followed the dispute on Prof. Suny and decided to E-mail him myself. Overall, I lost interested in this topic, since Shaffer is now a consultant and does not have a serious Academia position. But here are the response and conversation: "Dear Dr. Suny It says over here that you gave a positive over allview of Brenda Shaffer's book. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brenda_Shaffer&oldid=176337711 Would you happen to have the whole review?

Response: Dear Mr. Doostzadeh:

I read the Shaffer ms for the press and gave a CRITICAL review of the book, advised her to make several changes and additions, worried about the pro- Azerbaijani tilt of the book, but I also thought that she had made some headway into the question of Iranian-Azeri relations. I never wrote a published review of the book. That quotation is taken from my blurb on the book’s cover.

Ron Suny Ronald Grigor Suny Charles Tilly Collegiate Professor of Social and Political Histor The University of Michigan "

Note I did not capitalize the word CRITICAL, but Prof. Suny did. I can forward the E-mail to anyone and Admins. I hope the above response helps, at least it will remain in the talkpage for other users. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 01:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

We have information that Suny has never published a book review and had responded Brenda Shaffer in a critical way. As she is a master of it, Brenda Shaffer has used it out of its context and claims that she has a positive book reviwe. Also this adds to the controversial charachter of Brenda Shaffer. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

This email confirms that the review exists. If anyone has any other context from it, he can add it to the article, but claiming that it is non-existent or whatever is POV. Also, e-mail cannot be a source for Wikipedia, even if I have no doubt that it exists. We can use only published sources. Grandmaster (talk) 15:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the portion taken is not part of the review but a blurb as mentioned. To call it a portion of a book review is original research. Of course E-mail can not be necessarily taken as a source, but the admins can confirm its veracity. Anyhow, a blurb is different than a book review. Also the statement of Full Prof. Suny like full Professors Lurker, Atabi and Siegel is a reminder why the former post-doc and now consultant Shaffer's book is unreliable. Besides the fact that she has no academic position ) and hence can not be considered an academic source (like Suny or Swietchowski) or neutral source, up for Wikipedia standard. The comments of Suny exist in the talkpage for those who are interested.
Babak maybe you will look into the issue when you have time. I'll try to get a copy of the actual unpublished book review and comments of Prof. Suny although his reply came after a week or so. God bless honesty. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 20:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Dear Ali, I quote your own post of Suny's email:
I read the Shaffer ms for the press and gave a CRITICAL review of the book, etc
So there was a review? In any case, I agree that it is better to find the full text of Suny's review to use in the article. Grandmaster (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Right there was a review. But that portion in Amazon is not from the book review, but a blurb. I'll try to get the review. Regards.--alidoostzadeh (talk) 12:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no review. Suny said that he was asked to write a review, but he wrote a CRITICAL blurb, and as these people are famous about it, they took some words out of its context and represented them as if prof. Suny was positive about Brenda Shaffer's book--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)