Talk:Breakout

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[edit] Wozniak's share

Two of the references contradict on the level of Wozniak's share, $350 or $375. 4 says:

He pays Wozniak his share of $375 from the original $750

While 3 says:

Jobs received a $5,000 bonus and told Woz it was only $700 and gave Steve Wozniak his '50%'... $350.

Which was it? Does Wozniak's book iWoz give specifics on this?

Also, does Woz's book corroborate this statement:

Years later this truth would come out and it would add to the already increasing friction between the two which eventually lead to Steve Wozniak quitting Apple.

-Kadri

$350, which is half of $700. Likewise, the references are there to corroborate the full story of the item not being used, not just the ammount. Also, look again at the numbered references - iWoz is one of them. --Marty Goldberg 12:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed the part about Wozniak leaving Apple because Jobs shortchanged him on Breakout. I think it has more to do with Wozniak, Jobs, and Apple than with Breakout and interrupts the flow of the article by getting it sidetracked. It's also factually disputable.

--typhoon 12:55, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

So, if Wozniak and Jobs were responsible for the game, why does the infobox have Bushnell as the designer? siafu 01:06, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bushnell was NOT the designer. It's a woz original. Sadangel 03:51, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

The thing is, Bushnell designed (here meaning conceptualized) the game, and Woz (enlisted by Jobs) designed the circuitry needed to make it work.

[edit] External links: Clones

Could someone please separate these clones into shareware vs. closed-source freeware vs. open-source? Seahen 01:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Could someone with a bit more wiki-fu add back the clones links? They were useful, and removed with rather suspicious motives (in favor of some shockwave-only, platform-limited "official" version) by an Atari contractor.

Actually, they were removed because they have no business in the article per the Wikipedia WikiProject Computer and video games‎ guides and viewpoints of regular project contributors, as well as the regular Wikipedia link guidelines. Wikipedia is not a link farm, and certainly not a collection of "wannabe's", which do not illustrate the actual game being discussed in the article. It's an Atari game, so it puzzles me why someone would question the official online Atari presentation of the game as the standard reference. The fact that Atari is one of several contractors I sometimes do work for has no bearing on the issue, any more than you being an anonymous contributor does. And lastly you are incorrect - the "official" Atari one is Java based not shockwave, and is cross platform. The licensed one is shockwave. --Marty Goldberg 05:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

uh the clones links are damn helpful. I have no idea why someone would remove them, I was looking all over for a list of good clones and i came here and found that someone had removed them, just make a new page with a list of breakout clones and link to it =/

Once again, a collection of homebrew clones has no business here and does not illustrate the article. For people interested in playing it there's links to two versions officially put out by Atari, the creator of the game. You want a listing of "play-alikes", that's what google is for. Wikipedia is not a link farm. --Marty Goldberg 21:58, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious story

"Wozniak's friend Steve Jobs worked at Atari, and took on the project from Al Alcorn, the project's manager. Jobs turned around and enlisted Wozniak to design the game, which he did in four days. However, Atari was unable to use Steve Wozniak's design. In his usual zest to design the board as elegant as possible, he also cut down the amount of TTL (transistor-transistor logic) chips to just 42 total. This final design he submitted through Steve Jobs, however, made it impossible to manufacture - it was just too compact and complicated to be feasible with Atari's then current manufacturing methods. Jobs still got paid for the design, and because of a bonus clause in the contract based on the ammount of TTL's cut ($100 per TTL) he earned a US$5000 bonus. However, he only paid Wozniak $350, which he stated was half of the claimed $700 design fee. Atari wound up having to design their own version for production, which ultimately contained about 100 TTL's." - added by User:Wgungfu

No sources are cited and this story makes little sense as written. Would the author care to explain? Mirror Vax 16:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


Ultimate History of Video Games, pgs 71-73 which also includes this direct quote from Alan Alcorn (the Breakout project manager) on the issue. The book also states: "No one could figure out how he did it, and the manufacturing plant could not reproduce it. In the end, Alcorn had to assign another engineer to build a version of Breakout that was more easily replicated. The final game had about 100 chips."

There's also: http://www.thedoteaters.com/p2_stage1.php

There's also this web site: http://www.arcade-history.com/index.php?page=detail&id=3397

What about it appears dubious or makes little sense now that you've been given sources? --Marty Goldberg 03:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Alan Alcorn's description of the problem is rather vague. Do you know what he means? Is "it was just too compact and complicated to be feasible with Atari's then current manufacturing methods" your interpretation? What is meant by "manufacturing methods"? Mirror Vax 04:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I find it dubious as well -- this story smells. I find the supposed reaction of Atari execs to Wozniak's design hard to believe (if they couldn't understand it clearly enough to reproduce it, they might respect the engineering but they would have been none too happy about that result) and I find the supposedly awarded amount of $5000 dubious. Despite the so-called $100/chip saved promise, I don't think Atari had any intention of this totalling up to $5000 because that's an insane number of chips to save (they didn't expect the Woz) and I doubt they actually delivered on this promise -- especially since they couldn't use the design! I don't know a business in the world that wouldn't consider this to be a deal-breaker and use it as an excuse to pay out less than they promised. It would be shocking to me if somebody responsible for actually signing this payout didn't notice that the product they were paying for couldn't be used as is. The person at Atari who started the $5000 story (Bristow I believe) probably never actually saw such a cheque and is simply remembering the terms of the deal, and Steve Jobs may have never seen a cheque in this amount. We have only one interested party's word that he did. Remember that Atari would have loved to lure Wozniak away from Apple at the time they started telling this story; so these are interested parties we are relying on. Furthermore, Jobs has denied some of this story to Wozniak (we don't know exactly which part but Wozniak mentioned this in an interview) -- and if you ask Wozniak he'll talk a lot about forgiveness -- because that's who he is -- but route around that and look for the *confirmation* and you won't find it. Wozniak has also said (if you pay attention) that he's not sure he believes that it really happened the way Steve Bristow at Atari says it did. A quote from Wozniak's site: "Maybe the Atari people that said it and wrote it were wrong in their own memories. I do believe that this is possible." This is Wozniak again being generous and not going as far as to say, "It is possible that Atari lied." But it is clear that Wozniak himself does not entirely trust the provenance of this story. Why should we? Maybe it happened and maybe it didn't. Is there a reason that the Atari exec's word is gold here? I can't see one. This is essentially hearsay, and one shouldn't take Wozniak's willingness to talk about it and consider it publically (it's just his personality) as a confirmation from him that he knows it happened the way it's being told and in the amounts that it's been told.--65.93.205.132 02:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • sigh* Here we go again. This was covered already and referenced. It was Alcorn, not Bristow, whose talked about it ad nauseum. As senior engineer he oversaw everything, and signed off on the projects, including this one. They were paying for work done, project completed, on a prototype. Lots of prototypes get developed and not used, and the engineers still get paid. Woz's is always known for producing elegant and (more importantly) compact designs. Atari had an established manufacturing (assembly line) and design process. Woz (as a non-Atari employee and "hidden" designer) simply did not design the game within those standards, he did it to his own. Nothing wrong with that, but it lead to Atari not being able to use the design and assigning someone else to design the game. Woz also talks about the money situation as well in his book in more detail and confirmed he was indeed cut short on the full ammount. This has all been covered before in the Jobs article and in plenty of online interviews with both Alcorn and Wozniak, on this subject, conducted by actual professional researchers. The only speculation and "hearsay" is your previous paragraph. --Marty Goldberg 17:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I didn't claim anything one way or the other as to whether Steve Jobs did what was alleged, so I made no speculations on that. And I have the book right here in my hand (The First Quarter) where Alcorn claims that the payout was $30,000 ($1000 a chip, which is ridiculous), and which contradicts the oft-quoted $5000. Alcorn never said $5000. So what exactly are we supposed to believe? That Steve Jobs was paid some extra sum, but the details don't matter, and we should rely on the word of those who don't actually remember or agree on the details? So explain to me again which one of these dudes actually saw this cheque signed and delivered? I seriously doubt it was Alcorn. This has many disturbing earmarks of a 'tall story': told by interested parties, and growing in the telling. Note that I am not saying that there is no seed of truth: it just shouldn't be repeated in an encyclopedia as fact, especially not this $5000 figure or any other figure without better confirmation. It should be rewritten to say that the Atari fellows (without accusing them of anything) claim that Jobs got paid more than what he gave Wozniak but they can't agree on the amount. In fact, eventually I will edit this article to this effect; it doesn't seem to be very controversial and at least it gives a more accurate picture of the possible unreliability of these sources. What I don't like is hearsay from interested parties treated as fact, especialy when their facts conflict even amongst themselves. This is why police officers separate subjects to interview them; this is what they call a "fishy" story.--65.95.120.130 09:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear, I didn't come here on the attack, and I don't mind the story still being mentioned, but it needs some qualification, especially when it comes to the amounts. Take a look at the following Q & A from Wozniak's website, which I remembered in my first paragraph but couldn't turn up until I figured out the correct search term (and I include the whole question and answer to avoid looking like I'm selectively quoting):
"Q From e-mail: http://www.woz.org/letters/pirates/30.html
"I was in Barnes & Noble last night and stumbled onto a book by Gil Amelio which detailed his "500 days at Apple." I think his book was called "On the Firing Line." Anyway, given my interest in reading your comments in the wake of "Pirates," I looked up references to you. In one, he recounts your explanation of the Woz/Jobs friendship rift. He asserts that you told him that way back in the 70s, before the Apple I, you were working on something for Atari with Jobs. You did all of the work, and you and Jobs were supposed to get $1000. When you produced the product, Jobs gave it to Atari and came back to you with $300, saying all he got from them was $600. You didn't find out until the mid-eighties that Jobs actually did get $1000, and he ripped you off. Can you confirm this story?
"WOZ:
"I don't like to stir up old things that carry a negative note, but Steve was actually paid more like $3000 or $5000 or something. Nolan Bushnell, who paid him, gave the amount in a recent book, "Silicon Valley Guys." I was actually sort of thankful that Gil got it wrong, because it didn't sound as attrocious as it really was. To clarify, this happened before Apple, when Steve and I were best friends with little to our names. Steve said we'd split it 50/50. If he'd just said that I could have $50 for doing it I would have done it anyway for the fun and honor of designing an arcade game. You can see why I cried deeply when I found out the truth. I get hurt and cry very easily when people don't treat others well, or when the "right" thing isn't happening. Also, Steve doesn't remember the incident this way, so consider another possibility: that those saying the payment was large could be remembering it incorrectly. This is old stuff, and it's best not to use it as an indicator of Steve today."
So it looks like the $1000 figure I remember may have been simply an error on Amelio's part, although I do remember hearing it long before his book came out, so I would be curious as to where it actually originated, and how it became $5000 and then $30,000 when told by Alcorn. (From "The First Quarter" by Peter Molyneux: "According to Alcorn, Jobs pocketed a $30,000 bonus.") But take special note of the part where Wozniak says that "Steve doesn't remember the incident this way" and asks us to consider another possibility: that the actual figure was much smaller, which strongly implies that what Jobs took issue with was the figure. Is there a good reason why this encyclopedia is ignoring Woz's own advice by not at least mentioning this possibility, yet taking the figures quoted by Atari as fact? Shouldn't we read them both in a qualified manner? My specific problem is with the figures. I think it's probable that something unethical (or at least not very friendly) was done by Jobs to Wozniak, and that it is probably safe to say this is reliable as a general concept, but the actual figures of the bonus should be portrayed in an appropriate light as conflicting and therefore unreliable. By my viewing, every person interviewed has told a different story as to this figure.--65.95.120.130 10:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Another quote for you, this time from iCon (page 28) which is not exactly a Steve Jobs hagiography but seems quite well researched and includes interview material with Alcorn himself:
"The design for Break-Out was completed in one forty-eight-hour stretch. The company thought Jobs was designing it, but it was entirely Woz’s work.“Steve’s role was to buy the candy and cokes while Woz did all the design,”said Randy Wigginton,a very young camp follower who would end up at Apple. True to his past achievements, Woz managed to do the work using a ridiculously small number of chips. Alcorn was impressed and paid Steve the $1,000 he had offered. But Steve went back to Woz and said that Atari had paid only $600.He gave Woz his “half.”So Woz,who had done all the work,ended up with $300,while Steve Jobs pocketed $700."
So, that's two stories from Alcorn now. What exactly is this figure? I would really like to know, but I can't know based on the information out there. Is it $1000 (Alcorn I)? $5000 (Bushnell & repeated by Bristow)? $30,000 (Alcorn II)? Some other unknown smaller-than-$5000 figure relayed to Wozniak by Steve Jobs? This is what I'm talking about. Scratch the surface here and the details of this particular payout arrangement start to fall apart, but from this Wikipedia article as is, you would never know that.--65.95.120.130 11:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
More. This time from Wozniak himself. This time it's 44 chips instead of 30 (Wozniak seems to have a faulty memory himself -- I trust his earlier recollections more). This interview with him in Byte Magazine was from 1984. And again with the $1000 only this time in a slightly different context. (It does however match iCon's story that $1000 was what was originally promised.) Also notice that several details we take for granted now are different in this much more contemporary account from Wozniak. This looks like it may have been before Woz even heard about any deception. http://apple2history.org/museum/articles/byte8412/byte8412.html
"WOZNIAK: Steve Jobs was working for Atari at the time. Nolan Bushnell was really annoyed because all their new games were coming out at 150-170 chips. He wanted low chip counts to reduce costs, and he had seen a version of Pong that I had done, that only used about 30 chips. He appreciated that. So he said if we could design a hardware Breakout in under 50 chips, we'd get 700 bucks; and if it was under 40 chips, we'd get $1000. Atari didn't put us on a time schedule; Steve did. l had to do it in four days because Steve had to catch an airplane to Oregon. l was the designer-the engineer-and Steve was a breadboarder and test technician. We gave them a working breadboard for it. My first design was 42 chips. By the time we got it working it was 44. but we were so tired we couldn't cut it down. So we only got 700 bucks for it."
I'm going to keep looking but I'll stop loading this page with more quotes, I'll just keep it in my own records.--65.95.120.130 11:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Complicated version

There was an extremely complicated version of this game where the player was actually in a spaceship which ahd been warped to some alternate reality. The breakout paddle could be upgraded to include lasers, a longer surface, and a warp feature. I only ever saw this game in an arcade, not ever for home version. Anyone recall the name? -195.229.242.88 00:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Arkanoid, by Taito.--64.229.26.175 09:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Breakout a clone of Take 7's 'Bust Out' ?

It seems the set of seven Pong variants called 'Take 7' by Fun Games predated Breakout by one year. Have a look at the final variant in the bottom right corner: http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=flyer&id=2502&image=2 Looks to me like Breakout was a carbon copy turned 90 degrees. Other sources confirm the date of 'Take 7: http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=&game_id=10022 http://www.arcade-history.com/index.php?page=detail&id=4275 http://www.cityofberwyn.com/bronzeage/ (scroll down on that last source to the section on 1975). I think this is quite appropriate to be mentioned in this article, no? I looked quite extensively and I could not find any other games so identical before Bust Out, although both Clean Sweep by Ramtek in 1974 and TV Pinball by Exidy in 1975 have some similarities.--64.229.26.175 09:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

No, actually this game was a clone of Breakout. From Steve Bristow, the co-designer (with Nolan) of the game concept: "Fun games was started by some guys who left Atari coin op when we were in Los Gatos. They were sued for stealing parts from the stockroom and designs from Atari, and lost the suit. Breakout was in production in coin op before they did this. I testified in the suit. The copyright notice on a coin op Breakout listed los gatos as the company location and we moved to sunnyvale before 1976." This would also fit in to why all their games (all four) were clones of Atari games from the time. They were shut down in 1976 because of the suit. --Marty Goldberg 17:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, this is very good information, because it looked pretty damning. Just so you know, I am the same person questioning the $5000 story above, so it's not like I am a Steve Jobs partisan. If Breakout *were* a carbon copy, that would be pretty damning on him (since he claimed he originated the Breakout concept in The First Quarter). I just really don't think any of the different figures claimed by the Atari principals should be treated as fact. I have also seen $1000 by the way instead of $5000, but that was earlier days; now they seem to have standardised their story more. This retelling process itself is suspicious -- and it doesn't meet the standard of evidence I expect from an encyclopedia.--65.95.120.130 10:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does anybody object to qualifying the '$5000' figure?

Considering the stuff that I discovered above and the conflicting accounts over the years, does anybody object to qualifying the $5000 figure as only one story and the insertion of references to the other figures that have been quoted by other people involved over the years? I know I can go ahead and change it and see what happens, but I'm not in any hurry. I figure anyone who is passionate about "$5000 is the truth" will probably read the talk page anyway.--65.94.156.78 13:13, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Who the hell is Steve Bristow?

I've been doing a lot of work on the development section, and have no idea who Steve Bristow is. I can't find any information on him. What did he do? What books is he mentioned in? --Teggles 07:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

One of the lead engineers at Atari, 2nd only to Alcorn. Quite well known actually, and partnered with Nolan regularly on ideas during that time. Also the creator of several classic Atari games including Quadrapong, Tank, and others. Simple google search turns up tons of info, and no need for the melodrama. --Marty Goldberg 08:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)